My experience on the new signs

[Highflyer]

Once again any traffic safety engineers on board here, I know we are not driving on the road in a car where you can not over drive your head lights and the roads are almost always in a reasonable weather condition, but we are on snowmobiles where the vision is always perfect, and weather or snow dust never comes into play. So I guess very little in the way of information is the best way to go. Also I know that all of the 16,813 members on here are all that there are on the trails and they are of the safest of the riders because we each say we are, so we should all be able to navigate trails that we might have never been on. Oh yea there are alot more out there not just our little cross section of the snowmobile community who impact our ride. On a serious note, as the mmutcd(Michigan manual for Uniform Traffic Control Devises) teachs us in the road maintenance/construction industry that an educated driver is a safe one, I think all stops, curves and crossings should be marked to the best of our abilities. I understand this will bring on the I know all the trails and can get through them just fine arguments, but we are not all of the same skill set especially while riding in ever changing conditions. Please take a second to really think about are sport and its inherint risks, and think of yourself as an ambassodor to the outside world and try to tell them to go ride one of our great trails and just think of how confused they we be after a ride on one of our more twisty trails. Do you really think they would come back and say it was easy/safe to get around? I would not want someone who went to a rental shop and had their first ride to be there last because we did not care enough to take the number one thing into account which is rider safety. P.S. I believe there are two main issues behind this, one is a liabilty, legal issue, and second is a monetary one which these together go hand in hand in the interest of the lawyer/politican
Sorry for being long winded
Please ride safe
Chris

Should we add another 10 warning stickers to our sleds as well to warn people that this sport could be dangerous? How much more do we have to dumb down this Sport for it to safe enough?
People renting sled or first timers are not crashing sleds because of poor signage. They are not riding within their abilities. It's just like a 16y/o starting to drive a car, the lack of signs are not why they get into so many accidents.

 

[einne]

http://www.pro-vue.com/
Prescription goggles, no fogging while trail riding.

i back that. work fine..they have fogged before, just take corrective action..pressdo back on trail riding.

 

[russholio]

My wife and I just spent three days riding in the northern lower peninsula. Our riding took us through areas maintained by four different clubs. I of course will not form my final opinion based on one trip (and our first of the season, at that), but here are my impressions.

There are still inconsistencies in sign usage and sign placement (not unexpected, as there were inconsistencies prior to the change). We still saw a few chevrons here and there, as well as a few of the 90* bent arrows. There were 90* turns that we felt should have been marked and weren't (or in some cases, poorly marked) and some that were marked and didn't need to be (problem here is the decision to mark or not mark can be highly subjective -- and that is not new with the signage change, either). In a couple instances there were intersections that were not marked (orange signs) but I'm pretty sure that had nothing to do with the new changes and could have been the work of thieves or vandals.

For the most part, I did not notice the lack of signage. However....we rode strictly during the day, with good visibility, trails weren't icy, and very light traffic on the trails. Although I did not encounter any on this trip, I know there are cases where a "bridge ahead" sign would still be beneficial (spots where the trail takes a bend and the bridge is immediately following). Otherwise, I don't miss most of the others.

I still have my doubts as to whether this change will obtain its objective (speaking of which, what is the objective? Lenny's club says it's to slow people down, the DNR says in a Detroit news station story that it is to reduce clutter -- if the latter, then mission accomplished). The reason I still have my doubts -- on the last leg of yesterday's ride, I was approaching an appropriately marked 90* turn, at a reasonable speed, on my side of the trail. Imagine Ricky Racer's surprise when he came through the same turn, on my side, to find that I was approaching. He locked it up, skidded, slowed down, and got back on his side, no harm done -- not because of anything HE did, but because I was riding responsibly (which I did before the sign change and will continue to do). So there's at least one that doesn't pay attention to signs (whether they're present or not present, apparently) and I doubt he's the only one. Time will tell, I guess.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Lets take away all the road signs for our cars to make more aware drivers.

What roads do you drive on that have every dip, bump, turn, intersection, bridge, etc marked like the trails used to? I know that many of the county roads I drive on only have stop signs at the corners.....

 

[timo]

good....can we now put this thread to bed.

#please

I just called the Superior Snowmobile club president Mike Sabo and ask him the reason for taking the signs down. The was a meeting in Barage this last September and and all the clubs in the region had an opportuniy to listen to the reason for removing some signs, MSA was there also,, oh yea, dnr,,, duhhhh.

The reason is to promote safe riding and not to rely on signs,,,not my words but right from the meeting. Mike said all the Chevron signs were removed which are the same sort of sign you see on our roadways on turns. The turn (Chevron) signs were replaced with an arrow sign and mainly on the sharper turns with the slight corners with no signs. Bridge signs are gone now also which maybe should have stayed but we are here now,, so what to do?

He made no mention of trail clutter or expense,, there ya go,,,no more guessing

 

[Deleted member 10829]

What roads do you drive on that have every dip, bump, turn, intersection, bridge, etc marked like the trails used to? I know that many of the county roads I drive on only have stop signs at the corners.....

How many 90 degree turns are there on the roads with no warning signs to slow down or that the turn is coming? None!

timo,

If you don't like the thread, quit reading it!

 

[timo]

mpease:
I''ll read what i want when i want.

Lenny just gave you all the info. you need. no need for beating a dead horse with innuendo, hypothesis, and second guessing if you don't know the facts. Lenny laid them out perfectly.

How many 90 degree turns are there on the roads with no warning signs to slow down or that the turn is coming? None!

timo,

If you don't like the thread, quit reading it!

 

[Deleted member 10829]

Read the thread all you want, but don't make comments that the thread should be put to bed as it may interest others. Lenny's trail boss says one thing and the Detroit tv station reports a different thing right from the DNR, so it's far from clear. You agree with Lenny so that's the only side you see. This thread obviously still interests many people, maybe not you, but it does me. It must interest Lenny too as he can't quit commenting on it, nor can you. LOL

 

[crb340]

What roads do you drive on that have every dip, bump, turn, intersection, bridge, etc marked like the trails used to? I know that many of the county roads I drive on only have stop signs at the corners.....

Have you ever driven your car in the Mountains out west or in the Eastern Appalachians? Or how about pulling a big heavy trailer in those areas. They do have such hazards and conditions marked quite well.

 

[crb340]

So I went to pull the quote from the Fishweb site and Bill Manson's quote / comment on the main reason why many signs were pulled down. Don't know if any of you had a chance to check it out and read the comments from many of the sledders that commented but when I checked it last week there were probably 80 comments and 78 of the 80 thought removing the signs was a bad idea. In Bill Manson's comment he stated that it is was mostly due to legal issues (which is why I wanted to copy and paste). To my surprise all of the comments were gone except 1. Hmmmmm.....why do you think that all these comments were removed? Maybe it is something screwy with my computer but I find it interesting that they have been removed.

 

[russholio]

So I went to pull the quote from the Fishweb site and Bill Manson's quote / comment on the main reason why many signs were pulled down. Don't know if any of you had a chance to check it out and read the comments from many of the sledders that commented but when I checked it last week there were probably 80 comments and 78 of the 80 thought removing the signs was a bad idea. In Bill Manson's comment he stated that it is was mostly due to legal issues (which is why I wanted to copy and paste). To my surprise all of the comments were gone except 1. Hmmmmm.....why do you think that all these comments were removed? Maybe it is something screwy with my computer but I find it interesting that they have been removed.

Nothing screwy with your computer.....I went to look earlier this morning too, and all but one were gone. I believe I remember the quote you were looking for. For what my opinion is worth....removing signage as a way of slowing down riders -- maybe. Looks good on paper, but that doesn't necessarily translate to real-world results. Only time will tell. Removing signage to reduce clutter -- yep, that will work. Removing signage to reduce lawsuits? Ain't ever going to happen. It's just the society we live in today. People will sue because the club knew of a dangerous situation and put up a sign, and they will sue because the club didn't put up a sign. It's a no-win situation.

 

[whitedust]

Most of the public will want trail signs,others don't care or think it will not make a difference. The clutter thing is goofy not worth stating when considering trail saftey. Me I would always want signs so I can process information & make adjustments for what may be oncoming. Ricky Racer could care less just tears around the trails like a race track. I have seen them oncoming 2 wide or 1/1/2 wide on twistys & I just duck in out of the way but just crazy stuff in my mind. That is what happened when Venture north was run off trail & wrecked his sled. I tucked in out of the way & he went into the trees no place else to go. Signs or no signs is just not going to change the careless way Ricky Racer rides just will not happen.

 

[catalac]

Most of the public will want trail signs,others don't care or think it will not make a difference. The clutter thing is goofy not worth stating when considering trail saftey. Me I would always want signs so I can process information & make adjustments for what may be oncoming. Ricky Racer could care less just tears around the trails like a race track. I have seen them oncoming 2 wide or 1/1/2 wide on twistys & I just duck in out of the way but just crazy stuff in my mind. That is what happened when Venture north was run off trail & wrecked his sled. I tucked in out of the way & he went into the trees no place else to go. Signs or no signs is just not going to change the careless way Ricky Racer rides just will not happen.

Yep, and add our freind Al K Hall to Ricky, and he couldn't see the dang sign anyway!

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Have you ever driven your car in the Mountains out west or in the Eastern Appalachians? Or how about pulling a big heavy trailer in those areas. They do have such hazards and conditions marked quite well.

We aren't out west or in the mountains. These county roads are in the same exact area that the Michigan trails are.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

How many 90 degree turns are there on the roads with no warning signs to slow down or that the turn is coming? None!

As far as I knew the 90* turns will still be marked....

And for the record I do know of roads with 90* turns that have little to no signage...

 

[whitedust]

Actually most of Trail 107 is a FR so trail signs don't mean much already well signed as a road. I don't see having any sign or no sign problems on FR trails to me it is a twisty snowmobile trail issue. You can see way out in front on 107 with or without signs only time signs came into play was for logging sections. There is a section of 107 with a blind bridge in twistys right before Kenton so wonder what they did with that & if you hammer it after bridge northbound you can catch big air so I'm a careful thru there after I stood my sled up. I know but others don't not good if bridge ahead sign gone big air blind bridge not a good combo.

 

[Deleted member 10829]

As far as I knew the 90* turns will still be marked....

And for the record I do know of roads with 90* turns that have little to no signage...

I stand corrected, but I thought I heard or read where they are marked, but right at the corner without any warning signs in advance. According to the info below, (right from the DNR website), I didn't know what I was talking about!

The DNR will continue to mark 90-degree turns with "sharp turn" warning signs supplemented with a new directional arrow. The new snowmobile trail signage program will go into effect at the start of the 2012-13 snowmobile season.

 

[crb340]

We aren't out west or in the mountains. These county roads are in the same exact area that the Michigan trails are.

Was only making a point that there are lots of roads that use many warning signs for curves, dips, etc. But if you want to stay close to home (ie. MI), there are tons of roads in this state that require such signs as well. Like the Western UP. Comparing road signs to trail signs only reinforces the need for signs on trails.

 

[live4now]

Very good point.......100% agree

 

[polarisrider1]

Post 100 and we still are at post 1 unless you read. I could not tell any difference. On signage today, but trails went from snirt to mud in Irons, MI. My 250 yamaha held in there as I railed the trails, lol