The Dnr has to have probable cause to stop you! They park at interections with stop signs so you have to stop for the sign!They stand right next to stop sign. If you have nothing to hide point to your stickers and wait for nod from officer and then proceed! Everybody gets paranoid and sits there waiting for them to listen to your pipe,talk to you to see if your messed up or smell like booze or no stickers.insurance not required in WI! If they ask to speak to you, point to side of trail,pull out of intersection,stop and comply!Dont tell them anymore than you have too!!
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Almost 50 Snowmobile Citations Given During Derby Weekend
- Thread starter miaferominka
- Start date
So, you are saying that you enjoy the same expectation of privacy while out riding your Harley or your sled, as you do when secure in your own home? I think you need to read your law books again, if you ever have. Of course, the scenario you posted is ridiculous. Wouldn't you rather know that cops are on the trails, trying all they can to keep the riders safe? Same thing for even having the trails! How many landowners would pull the plug on their land being used for trails if they knew that it was a "lawless" trail system? A huge amount would.
I don't think it's a ridiculous scenario at all. You obviously aren't paying attention to the power grab going on in this country.
As far as landowners pulling the plug on the lawless trail system, I believe we have plenty of laws and regulations, and I believe most snowmobilers follow them. That's why there has to be probable cause before a search. We are presumed innocent, and by randomly stopping people, there is a presumption of guilt on the part of the officer, and you have to prove innocence. I used to be for random searches, until I looked at the slippery slope we would slide down. Power corrupts, and I don't want the government getting any more than they already have. I too will remember this post when the s**t hits the fan.
The argument being made by many of giving up rights, probable cause, etc. for the large group stopped in ER doesn't hold water.
The poster who was part of the group admitted there were violations within the group and citations issued. Where there is smoke, there is fire. The probable cause to stop the group was likely the sleds without registrations (whoever organized the ride certainly needs their head examined for allowing these sleds into the group, seems pretty elementary to at least ensure all the sleds had visible valid registrations) and the reality is in a group that size there are likely going to be other violations...drunkeness, etc.
Ubee commented and which has always been my experience in decades of riding in the northwoods of WI...if you have a valid registration at the checkpoints, you don't get pulled over unless you are also demonstrating other probable cause or clear violations.
And frankly, those in the large ER group all deserved to be checked if even one of their group didn't have a valid registration. Until we begin to police our own and take a stand with friends and family who violate the laws this sport will always have a black eye in the general public and with lawmakers. And in my opinion, ignorance is not bliss. You can argue it was a ride organized by someone else so you didn't think you had to worry about anything like that....well you do. And if your all registered, not drunk, then you've lost 30 minutes of riding time while they check everyone else....I see no problem with that.
When's the last time anyone here took a stand with family or friends and said "I'm not going to ride with you because your drunk" or "I'm not going to ride with you until you have a valid registration" or even better yet, "I'm not going to ride with you while your drunk or under the influence of drugs and if you get on that sled I'll call and report you to authorities".
I know some on here have, but until everyone begins doing that instead of making excuses, we'll always have a problem.
Thats the hard dose of reality of what this sport needs...all of us to be part of the solution.
The poster who was part of the group admitted there were violations within the group and citations issued. Where there is smoke, there is fire. The probable cause to stop the group was likely the sleds without registrations (whoever organized the ride certainly needs their head examined for allowing these sleds into the group, seems pretty elementary to at least ensure all the sleds had visible valid registrations) and the reality is in a group that size there are likely going to be other violations...drunkeness, etc.
Ubee commented and which has always been my experience in decades of riding in the northwoods of WI...if you have a valid registration at the checkpoints, you don't get pulled over unless you are also demonstrating other probable cause or clear violations.
And frankly, those in the large ER group all deserved to be checked if even one of their group didn't have a valid registration. Until we begin to police our own and take a stand with friends and family who violate the laws this sport will always have a black eye in the general public and with lawmakers. And in my opinion, ignorance is not bliss. You can argue it was a ride organized by someone else so you didn't think you had to worry about anything like that....well you do. And if your all registered, not drunk, then you've lost 30 minutes of riding time while they check everyone else....I see no problem with that.
When's the last time anyone here took a stand with family or friends and said "I'm not going to ride with you because your drunk" or "I'm not going to ride with you until you have a valid registration" or even better yet, "I'm not going to ride with you while your drunk or under the influence of drugs and if you get on that sled I'll call and report you to authorities".
I know some on here have, but until everyone begins doing that instead of making excuses, we'll always have a problem.
Thats the hard dose of reality of what this sport needs...all of us to be part of the solution.
If you want to live in a protective bubble go ahead.
I would rather live in the old free USA and police myself. Way too much government, DNR, Police and laws that are on the books now than there was in the 80's and 90's.
Protective bubble...thats comical...
So you police yourself...do you police your family and friends when need be as well?
And since when has there been "Way too much DNR and police" presence snowmobiling in WI? You can ride an entire season and count on one hand the number of times you see them patrolling....
Protective bubble...thats comical...
So you police yourself...do you police your family and friends when need be as well?
And since when has there been "Way too much DNR and police" presence snowmobiling in WI? You can ride an entire season and count on one hand the number of times you see them patrolling....
Go to a Radar run, Eagle River event or any kind of event where there are going to be lots of people and magically the DNR and cops show up and set up check points.
Yes, I do police my family and friends. If I don't want to be around something I won't. Again part of life and being an adult is dealing with situations yourself. I don't need a babysitter or the government telling my family, friends or myself what to do and how to do it.
Go to a Radar run, Eagle River event or any kind of event where there are going to be lots of people and magically the DNR and cops show up and set up check points.
And the problem is.....what?
And the problem is.....what?
The problem is they are out there to make money by writting a lot of tickets. They are not out there to protect and serve the public. If you can't grasp that then we will just have to agree to disagree.
F
fusion
Guest
I have to agree with those arguing for too much enforcement. Is there very limited enforcement in northern WI? Yes. By that I mean, you rarely see them around on a consistent basis. I understand that. But when they are around, they go OFF the DEEP END with checkpoint enforcement, and that is simply un-American and communistic. But then again, the DNR answers to nobody and you basically can't challenge them in court, at least not easily.
As some have already said, you should NOT be stopped for any reason, unless you are clearly violating rules and regulations, or have broken a law. If you have stickers, are stopping at signs, and aren't riding recklessly, they should not be harrassing you - period.
Now on the other hand, I was in Eagle River area for 10 days between X-Mas and New Years. I was coming into town from the north, just north of Trackside and I was in a hurry to be at Track by noon. I looked up, saw the Trackside sign ahead, and slid through a stop sign with nobody around, except the 2 DNR guys just a few yards off the trail. They both chased into the parking lot where I was apologetic and cordial, pleading my case for stupidity. The kid said, "you would have blown right through that sign if you hadn't seen us". I said, I don't normally do that, and explained why I had. They gave me a warning, and took my name and registration. I thanked the guy and shook his hand. They aren't all jerks.
He could have given me a ticket, but at least he listened to my case and used sound judgment for no harm, no foul. I'll tell you what, when you get pulled over for something stupid, it sure makes you think about following the rules and avoiding the hassle.
As some have already said, you should NOT be stopped for any reason, unless you are clearly violating rules and regulations, or have broken a law. If you have stickers, are stopping at signs, and aren't riding recklessly, they should not be harrassing you - period.
Now on the other hand, I was in Eagle River area for 10 days between X-Mas and New Years. I was coming into town from the north, just north of Trackside and I was in a hurry to be at Track by noon. I looked up, saw the Trackside sign ahead, and slid through a stop sign with nobody around, except the 2 DNR guys just a few yards off the trail. They both chased into the parking lot where I was apologetic and cordial, pleading my case for stupidity. The kid said, "you would have blown right through that sign if you hadn't seen us". I said, I don't normally do that, and explained why I had. They gave me a warning, and took my name and registration. I thanked the guy and shook his hand. They aren't all jerks.
He could have given me a ticket, but at least he listened to my case and used sound judgment for no harm, no foul. I'll tell you what, when you get pulled over for something stupid, it sure makes you think about following the rules and avoiding the hassle.
The problem is they are out there to make money by writting a lot of tickets. They are not out there to protect and serve the public. If you can't grasp that then we will just have to agree to disagree.
And if you truly believe that....how do you rationalize that they issued 4x as many warnings vs citations last weekend in and around ER?
And if you truly believe that....how do you rationalize that they issued 4x as many warnings vs citations last weekend in and around ER?
Even a bigger point now you are giving them the option and power to choose who they are ticketing and who they are warning. Even more of a problem. Like I said we will agree to disagree. Cops, DNR and other government officials to me are not better than criminals except we give them a badge or license to do the crime legally IMHO. Go to a police christmas party one time and see how many drive home drunk.
anonomoose
New member
Actually, in the United States, (specifically NOT CANADA) ALL law enforcement are DEFINITELY supposed to use, probable cause rules, and the courts do often throw out (or more rightly the prosecutor simply won't bring action) on cases where probable cause wasn't used.
Stopping an entire group of 60 sledders would very likely constitute violation of this right.
FIRST year law student would know this.
Doesn't matter if you saw someone come out of a bar
Doesn't matter that you just "thought" this guy/gal looked guilty
Doesn't matter that you think Law Enforcement might find someone guilty of some offense.
If this happens to you next time, ask the law enforcement officer "why he stopped you" and he is supposed to give you a direct answer, and often says, "Do you know why I stopped you....?" and then given an answer.
Doing random checks are not illegal, but doing blanket checks of everyone is definitely against the laws of this country.
We do NOT live in a police state. Individual rights are supposed to be held to the highest level in our country and that is why we assume you are innocent until proved guilty by a court of law.
Of course, the list of "probable causes" are long and not hard to associate with a stop.
I agree that one of the responsibilities if not outright obligation is to make sure that the organizer checked for every single registration and documentation necessary to be on the trail. NOT doing that simple task put the whole group in potential trouble and the time lost is because the organizer didn't do his job.
One last thing to point out is, when you figure that you spend plenty to be out on your sled, any time wasted on trailside being examined for proper credentials and permits, means YOUR wasted time. That commodity we all have in short supply, eh?
In Canada, if you drive down the road, and look like you might be fishing, or haul a boat behind you, the entire fleet of cars and trucks can get pulled over, and thoroughly investigated for drugs, illegal catch, lack of licenses, camping permits, and any other thing they seem to find including transport of certain foods and beverages. They have no protection laws over there at all. Different country, and different laws and rights...but some privileges are definitely out of whack. This is one of the places where the USA is completely different than Canada. We look alike, but we don't have the same laws and rights.
Stopping an entire group of 60 sledders would very likely constitute violation of this right.
FIRST year law student would know this.
Doesn't matter if you saw someone come out of a bar
Doesn't matter that you just "thought" this guy/gal looked guilty
Doesn't matter that you think Law Enforcement might find someone guilty of some offense.
If this happens to you next time, ask the law enforcement officer "why he stopped you" and he is supposed to give you a direct answer, and often says, "Do you know why I stopped you....?" and then given an answer.
Doing random checks are not illegal, but doing blanket checks of everyone is definitely against the laws of this country.
We do NOT live in a police state. Individual rights are supposed to be held to the highest level in our country and that is why we assume you are innocent until proved guilty by a court of law.
Of course, the list of "probable causes" are long and not hard to associate with a stop.
I agree that one of the responsibilities if not outright obligation is to make sure that the organizer checked for every single registration and documentation necessary to be on the trail. NOT doing that simple task put the whole group in potential trouble and the time lost is because the organizer didn't do his job.
One last thing to point out is, when you figure that you spend plenty to be out on your sled, any time wasted on trailside being examined for proper credentials and permits, means YOUR wasted time. That commodity we all have in short supply, eh?
In Canada, if you drive down the road, and look like you might be fishing, or haul a boat behind you, the entire fleet of cars and trucks can get pulled over, and thoroughly investigated for drugs, illegal catch, lack of licenses, camping permits, and any other thing they seem to find including transport of certain foods and beverages. They have no protection laws over there at all. Different country, and different laws and rights...but some privileges are definitely out of whack. This is one of the places where the USA is completely different than Canada. We look alike, but we don't have the same laws and rights.
miaferominka
New member
The problem is they are out there to make money by writting a lot of tickets. They are not out there to protect and serve the public. If you can't grasp that then we will just have to agree to disagree.
Protecting is getting the drunks off the trail isn't it ?
P
PANKRATZ
Guest
Even a bigger point now you are giving them the option and power to choose who they are ticketing and who they are warning. Even more of a problem. Like I said we will agree to disagree. Cops, DNR and other government officials to me are not better than criminals except we give them a badge or license to do the crime legally IMHO. Go to a police christmas party one time and see how many drive home drunk.
I think jpsted voted for Obama!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Protecting is getting the drunks off the trail isn't it ?
You keep thinking that I have lost all faith in any WI Legal system or DNR system that can't prosecute people for stealing snowmobiles and running down deer with them but can give you $169 fines to people who drive too close to fake ice fishing shacks.
I thought WI did not allow any type of checkpoints / roadblocks.
http://media.jsonline.com/images/checkpointG_122108.jpg
That map is from 2008 but I think it is still accurate.
http://media.jsonline.com/images/checkpointG_122108.jpg
That map is from 2008 but I think it is still accurate.
The problem is they are out there to make money by writting a lot of tickets. They are not out there to protect and serve the public. If you can't grasp that then we will just have to agree to disagree.
Ok so they go to popular events and write lots of tickets........to who? The guy who is properly registered, insured(although not required), stopped at the stop sign, wasnt speeding, not drinking or doing anything wrong?? No they write it for the guy who last registered his sled in 1999, with open stingers, jumped the previous six driveways while going over the stop sign and then falls back while trying to get his wallet out. I am not perfect and dont claim to be but if I head out in any situation where they can write me a ticket then that is fault and I will take the blame.
And of course there is this:
Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
But that's just a bunch of old words.
Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
But that's just a bunch of old words.
And of course there is this:
Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
But that's just a bunch of old words.
That would make a great election bumper sticker.