Anyone going to Mpls Sneak Peek?

[ezra]

it cant be a marketing money issue .the peek cost nothing for them what a few sleds they drop at a local dealer then that dealer and 1 or 2 others send employees to show on that dealers dime. then dealer crates up sleds and they head to next town.
1/4 rental on a hall
has to be less than 20k
Darling spends more than that in jet fuel in a weekend.
it deff could be something to do with yammi wanting the spot light
I don't think cat is pulling marketing cash only because of all the test ride events I saw this yr .
I can say of the few people in the yammi section the only real hovering was around the yammi cats and more around the MPI turbo sled . the only guys around the true old school yammi were deff over 65
and we spent some time looking and trying to figure out what all this fit and finish nonsense talk was about.
I will say if I were buying a rmk I would have to hold off a yr that new skinny chasi is going to be unreal for sidehilling

 

[whitedust]

it cant be a marketing money issue .the peek cost nothing for them what a few sleds they drop at a local dealer then that dealer and 1 or 2 others send employees to show on that dealers dime. then dealer crates up sleds and they head to next town.
1/4 rental on a hall
has to be less than 20k
Darling spends more than that in jet fuel in a weekend.
it deff could be something to do with yammi wanting the spot light
I don't think cat is pulling marketing cash only because of all the test ride events I saw this yr .
I can say of the few people in the yammi section the only real hovering was around the yammi cats and more around the MPI turbo sled . the only guys around the true old school yammi were deff over 65
and we spent some time looking and trying to figure out what all this fit and finish nonsense talk was about.
I will say if I were buying a rmk I would have to hold off a yr that new skinny chasi is going to be unreal for sidehilling

I agree Yamaha taking the snowmobile spotlight & has the big money to buy what they want from AC. Just starting to get this feeling AC is taking a back seat to Yamaha by design & has to be a big money reason to make it worth their while to do that. If Yamaha buys & merges with AC the AC stockholders make out big time! I dislike backing down to 3 OEMs but it is a shrinking NA market place & 3 is a crowd for $13-14K sleds. I'm starting to smell consolidation in the wind & AC market share not improving so might be a good thing for the market & people that work for AC. AC said Yamaha/AC OEM Agreement not as profitable as they would have liked but then again may be more profitable than mfg their own sleds. No way to really know but something smells fishy to me for AC to stop marketing their sleds. Seems like a slow slide out & I just can't come up with another answer but willing to hear others thoughts.

 

[Hoosier]

I agree Yamaha taking the snowmobile spotlight & has the big money to buy what they want from AC. Just starting to get this feeling AC is taking a back seat to Yamaha by design & has to be a big money reason to make it worth their while to do that. If Yamaha buys & merges with AC the AC stockholders make out big time! I dislike backing down to 3 OEMs but it is a shrinking NA market place & 3 is a crowd for $13-14K sleds. I'm starting to smell consolidation in the wind & AC market share not improving so might be a good thing for the market & people that work for AC. AC said Yamaha/AC OEM Agreement not as profitable as they would have liked but then again may be more profitable than mfg their own sleds. No way to really know but something smells fishy to me for AC to stop marketing their sleds. Seems like a slow slide out & I just can't come up with another answer but willing to hear others thoughts.

I think you are reading too much into them skipping the sneak peak. Look how many models Cat now offers. Look at their financials - very profitable, zero debt. Yamaha does very well with sleds outside of North America, which is where the growth is. The Yamaha partnership is helping Cat hit those markets and will pay off in the long run that way.

 

[ezra]

from what I understand Russia is exploding with the off trail guys .
u can tell by looking at some of the poos models who they are going hard after deff tundra living guys

 

[indy_500]

I think you are reading too much into them skipping the sneak peak. Look how many models Cat now offers. Look at their financials - very profitable, zero debt. Yamaha does very well with sleds outside of North America, which is where the growth is. The Yamaha partnership is helping Cat hit those markets and will pay off in the long run that way.

X2 if anything Yamaha will disappear and cat will take over the sled division. Almost every cat dealer has a hand full of 2015s right now but I still don't get why they decided not to do the sneak peak.

 

[ac600sp]

I was there this morning. Ski-Doo and Polaris had a good showing. The Yamaha side wasn't to crowded with people. Anyone know why Cat wasn't there? Are they doing there own showing somewhere else?

 

[indy_500]

it cant be a marketing money issue .the peek cost nothing for them what a few sleds they drop at a local dealer then that dealer and 1 or 2 others send employees to show on that dealers dime. then dealer crates up sleds and they head to next town.
1/4 rental on a hall
has to be less than 20k
Darling spends more than that in jet fuel in a weekend.
it deff could be something to do with yammi wanting the spot light
I don't think cat is pulling marketing cash only because of all the test ride events I saw this yr .
I can say of the few people in the yammi section the only real hovering was around the yammi cats and more around the MPI turbo sled . the only guys around the true old school yammi were deff over 65
and we spent some time looking and trying to figure out what all this fit and finish nonsense talk was about.
I will say if I were buying a rmk I would have to hold off a yr that new skinny chasi is going to be unreal for sidehilling

For me I didn't want to be a guinea pig I'd like to give the the 800ho a year in mtn chassis and 2 years in trail chassis before considering purchasing one. Its hard to go wrong this year with all the incentives plus I got $1000 ticket towards a 16 or 17 which I plan to use on a 17...

 

[bearrassler]

Ski Doo skipped for a couple of years also. Last year was their first year back after a 2 year absence. I plan on going to Fargo Tuesday evening to check them out. Like Hoosier said Arctic Cat is doing very well according to the financials. Zero debt and good profits.

 

[Deleted member 10829]

from what I understand Russia is exploding with the off trail guys .
u can tell by looking at some of the poos models who they are going hard after deff tundra living guys

Yep, the European market is the fastest growing in the world. Poo has been targeting it for a couple years now, hence all the 550 fan offerings that started last year. Seems to be the big seller over there in the utility segment. They like a sled that can do it all.

 

[whitedust]

X2 if anything Yamaha will disappear and cat will take over the sled division. Almost every cat dealer has a hand full of 2015s right now but I still don't get why they decided not to do the sneak peak.

Indy that makes no sense biz wise & would never happen. AC wants engines & can get those all day long via traditional OEM agreements. If Yamaha wants to shut down sleds in USA & Japan so be it but that would hurt AC not help them. AC could go it alone again but doesn't need anything from Yamaha to do that but likes their 4s engines a lot. Yamaha has to come to USA to be competitive & financials would have to go Yamahas way... of that fact I have no doubt.

 

[old abe]

Cat will never sell to Yamaha. Cats PRIDE runs way too deep. All you have to do is look at the core people who not only built this company, but they are still there everyday in product development. Such as Roger S. Money is not everything to these people, but competing is.

 

[Hoosier]

Cat's total sales last 3 fiscal years, in millions (the current one ends in May): $464, $585, $671

Cat's net income last 3 fiscal years: $13, $29, $39

Cat's short and long-term debt: $0, $0, $0

Doesn't sound like a company in trouble, regardless of whether they take their 2015 sleds, which are already at dealers, to a sneak peak.

 

[indy_500]

Indy that makes no sense biz wise & would never happen. AC wants engines & can get those all day long via traditional OEM agreements. If Yamaha wants to shut down sleds in USA & Japan so be it but that would hurt AC not help them. AC could go it alone again but doesn't need anything from Yamaha to do that but likes their 4s engines a lot. Yamaha has to come to USA to be competitive & financials would have to go Yamahas way... of that fact I have no doubt.

Well explain the dead Yamaha section at the sneak peak and 10% market share LOL

 

[whitedust]

Well explain the dead Yamaha section at the sneak peak and 10% market share LOL

Why???....Does not need explaining.... Yamaha has limited line up but has nothing to do with the current agreement or where each go from here but would help if had 2s line up if you want to grab more market share. It is what it is & the $15K MSRP has a lot to do with Japan mfg & why the AC OEM agreement was signed. There is good quality with a Yamaha purchase for trail riders but there are limits of the current product line not much available past high mileage rider products. Yamaha does very well where their products suit the application but have nothing well suited to powder, mountain or hardcore banger sled again have good products for high mile riders....that is their 1 & only market niche.

 

[whitedust]

Cat's total sales last 3 fiscal years, in millions (the current one ends in May): $464, $585, $671

Cat's net income last 3 fiscal years: $13, $29, $39

Cat's short and long-term debt: $0, $0, $0

Doesn't sound like a company in trouble, regardless of whether they take their 2015 sleds, which are already at dealers, to a sneak peak.

A lot of these comments are making me feel that an acquisition of some part or all of AC by Yamaha should happen. Yamaha wants to expand market share, needs USA mfg location & needs help in chassis development. Yamaha would only acquire a company that is profitable & has little or very limited debt. The current alliance benefits both companies but these type of agreements always morph into something bigger or smaller just the way any biz environment works. AC loyalists are not going to like this but AC seems to be positioning themselves for Yamaha acquisition & now taking back seat at Sneak Peek just makes sense. The current OEM arrangement can & will only go so far then not much sense in time to have 2 separate companies acquisition merge & consolidation becomes the only common sense solution. There will always be naysayers within any company that wants to stay independent resist an acquisition & merge but so what not up to them as acquisition happens at the top of both companies. Once acquisition becomes a reality legal department steps in & done deal...easy as that.

 

[Hoosier]

A lot of these comments are making me feel that an acquisition of some part or all of AC by Yamaha should happen. Yamaha wants to expand market share, needs USA mfg location & needs help in chassis development. Yamaha would only acquire a company that is profitable & has little or very limited debt. The current alliance benefits both companies but these type of agreements always morph into something bigger or smaller just the way any biz environment works. AC loyalists are not going to like this but AC seems to be positioning themselves for Yamaha acquisition & now taking back seat at Sneak Peek just makes sense. The current OEM arrangement can & will only go so far then not much sense in time to have 2 separate companies acquisition merge & consolidation becomes the only common sense solution. There will always be naysayers within any company that wants to stay independent resist an acquisition & merge but so what not up to them as acquisition happens at the top of both companies. Once acquisition becomes a reality legal department steps in & done deal...easy as that.

IMO only - I don't see this happening as Yamaha would get no value out of paying a premium for Cat. Yamaha does well wherever they invest resources - they just have not invested much in snowmobiles recently - probably because the market in general has shrunk and they weren't sure how dedicated they were to it long term. Look what they do in 4 wheelers, motorcycles, outboards, etc. They can be best in class if they wanted to spend the money in R&D. They already build other products in the US so they don't need to buy a company to get manufacturing know-how either.

Plus, if AC was positioning themselves for a takeover, the last thing they would do is back down on marketing and hurt the value of its brand. And, if Cat was interested in selling out, you would see some major shareholders or institutions beginning to accumulate shares. There is no sign of that happening.

I continue to see the Viper alliance as something shorter-term that benefits both companies. For Yamaha, it provided newer product to put on its showroom floor while it figures out what next to build (I think they got behind on development due to lack of investment). If you believe Yamaha, they have some new product in the pipeline. For Cat, it provided a new, popular 4 stroke powerplant to put in a chassis their customers seem to like, it absorbed some excess manufacturing capacity and it most likely helped Cat learn from Yamaha about quality control.

 

[whitedust]

IMO only - I don't see this happening as Yamaha would get no value out of paying a premium for Cat. Yamaha does well wherever they invest resources - they just have not invested much in snowmobiles recently - probably because the market in general has shrunk and they weren't sure how dedicated they were to it long term. Look what they do in 4 wheelers, motorcycles, outboards, etc. They can be best in class if they wanted to spend the money in R&D. They already build other products in the US so they don't need to buy a company to get manufacturing know-how either.

Plus, if AC was positioning themselves for a takeover, the last thing they would do is back down on marketing and hurt the value of its brand. And, if Cat was interested in selling out, you would see some major shareholders or institutions beginning to accumulate shares. There is no sign of that happening.

I continue to see the Viper alliance as something shorter-term that benefits both companies. For Yamaha, it provided newer product to put on its showroom floor while it figures out what next to build (I think they got behind on development due to lack of investment). If you believe Yamaha, they have some new product in the pipeline. For Cat, it provided a new, popular 4 stroke powerplant to put in a chassis their customers seem to like, it absorbed some excess manufacturing capacity and it most likely helped Cat learn from Yamaha about quality control.

You got to be kidding that is insider trading & people go to jail for that. Nothing wrong with either AC or Yamaha brand at this time but getting closer to 1 brand via current line ups. Yamaha has new products in pipeline...lol... What products those designed by AC? Why would Yamaha pay a premium for AC? If ROI there it happens & again all your points benfit an acquisition & good match for Yamaha for their currnet needs..excellent fit.

 

[Hoosier]

You got to be kidding that is insider trading & people go to jail for that. Nothing wrong with either AC or Yamaha brand at this time but getting closer to 1 brand via current line ups. Yamaha has new products in pipeline...lol... What products those designed by AC? Why would Yamaha pay a premium for AC? If ROI there it happens & again all your points benfit an acquisition & good match for Yamaha for their currnet needs..excellent fit.

It's only illegal insider trading if it's not disclosed. There is nothing wrong at all with insiders accumulating shares - in fact it's smart if the insider sees upside.

Why would Yamaha pay a premium - you said previously that AC shareholders would make out big from an acquisition - that implies the premium. I don't see the value for Yamaha.

I obviously know nothing about Yamaha's pipeline but there is a guy named Chris Reed that works in Yamaha's product development. He has a blog that seems to imply new "pure Yamaha" product is upcoming. He could just be blowing smoke to the Yami fans.

 

[whitedust]

It's only illegal insider trading if it's not disclosed. There is nothing wrong at all with insiders accumulating shares - in fact it's smart if the insider sees upside.

Why would Yamaha pay a premium - you said previously that AC shareholders would make out big from an acquisition - that implies the premium. I don't see the value for Yamaha.

I obviously know nothing about Yamaha's pipeline but there is a guy named Chris Reed that works in Yamaha's product development. He has a blog that seems to imply new "pure Yamaha" product is upcoming. He could just be blowing smoke to the Yami fans.

Chris Reed is a joke & he has never indicated anything of interest more like white noise to me.. IMO... if you want to give credit to a blogger ok with me but not the issue in any way he knows nothing mor ethan he is told to say.

To me paying a premium for anything means a price far above the fair market value. The share premium I was referring to is the higher share value in a Yamaha company vs owning AC shares the conversion AC shares to Yamaha shares would benefit all holders. Overall I look at AC & question where can they go alone in the long term?? AC with Yamaha the sky is the limit but competing with Yamaha, BRP, & Polaris no long term future & prime for an acquisition at sometime & now moving in that direction with Yamaha. I have been involved in the OEM biz all my life & to me the AC/Yamaha OEM Agreement was an alliance from the get go but they both defined it as an OEM agreement so Ok that is how they want to be perceived. They both currently define the relationship as & alliance which is much more costly to support & believe me they are close in all biz activities. The next logical step is acquisition merge & consolidation not much else that can happen especially for AC. I can get into more detail about each phase but generally that is what I'm seeing at this point & how things are progressing for both companies. I NOT saying this will happen today but in good time seems very logical more so for AC.

 

[Hoosier]

Chris Reed is a joke & he has never indicated anything of interest more like white noise to me.. IMO... if you want to give credit to a blogger ok with me but not the issue in any way he knows nothing mor ethan he is told to say.

To me paying a premium for anything means a price far above the fair market value. The share premium I was referring to is the higher share value in a Yamaha company vs owning AC shares the conversion AC shares to Yamaha shares would benefit all holders. Overall I look at AC & question where can they go alone in the long term?? AC with Yamaha the sky is the limit but competing with Yamaha, BRP, & Polaris no long term future & prime for an acquisition at sometime & now moving in that direction with Yamaha. I have been involved in the OEM biz all my life & to me the AC/Yamaha OEM Agreement was an alliance from the get go but they both defined it as an OEM agreement so Ok that is how they want to be perceived. They both currently define the relationship as & alliance which is much more costly to support & believe me they are close in all biz activities. The next logical step is acquisition merge & consolidation not much else that can happen especially for AC. I can get into more detail about each phase but generally that is what I'm seeing at this point & how things are progressing for both companies. I NOT saying this will happen today but in good time seems very logical more so for AC.

You make some good points. I do not anything about Chris Reed - just say him quoted on TY.com...

I think 2016 will make it all clear - if Yamaha doesn't have anything new then, it will really seem as if they are done making sleds independently. How old is that Apex/Vector chassis - about 10 years now?