Building / Shop advice

[goofy600]

Does anyone have an architect you would recommend in the North East Wisconsin area?

Df, sorry can’t help with architect but if you are building a pole barn couldn’t that company possibly help with your needs? Just a thought. Also great post hoping to build shop this year or next for sure and lots of great posts and ideas to think about so thanks and thanks to all posts.

 

[euphoric1]

Too bad slimcake wouldn't chime in, while serving on the stimulus project via zoom it looked like he also had an impressive shop as well, would think he would have some good imput.

 

[MJL]

I don’t know if you are going to have walled off area for a heated shop inside your building but I put an insulated overhead door on my dividing wall so I can move toys from hot to cold side. It’s been working well. The interior OH door is also inline with one of my exterior doors so I can work on something inside that’s the full depth of building. I only put up a 40’ x 72’ (lol) with half of it a heated shop.

 

[fjr4me]

This is a great thread and timely for me also. Thanks dfattack!!

I'm in the process of building a 30' x 60' with 14' sidewalls. The township I'm in only allows up to 1800 sq/ft for up to 1.5 acres.
It will have radiant in-floor heat in the entire shop. My questions to the group revolves around floor drains at the moment.

1. What is everyone using for drains?
I'm thinking of going with a trench drain. Tuf-Tite TR-1 presently, but willing to make a change, if there is a better solution.

2. How much of the 60' length would be suggested for drainage?
At the moment I was thinking of 18' of drain centered in the shop with the entire floor sloped to the drain.

3. If the drain is "daylighted", is that a problem for cold air coming into the shop in winter?
Does everyone use oil separators?
Is it better to go to a separate tank and then to daylight or septic field?

Any and all suggestions for a "best" drain system are greatly appreciated.

 

[favoritos]

Srt20 what height would you put outlets at if you had do over? And I believe you said something about high quality garage doors, could you possibly find the name of that company and post it. Thanks in advance.

I like to install rows of outlets at varied heights around my work benches. I put one set under the work surface facing out. I recess them slightly behind the edge so they don't turn into knee clangers. I put another set above the benches to use on bench projects. I also have some hanging over central work areas that get used often.

Garage door selection is really related to the size of your opening. The opening size is also important when compared to ceiling height. Typical overhead garage style tracks take up a lot of ceiling height. The 16" ceiling height wouldn't allow an opening nearly that high. Keep in mind that a building being used to store toys should have at least one door at 13'6" minimum height. I really would recommend one fantastic huge door combined with smaller overhead doors for more frequent use. You would hate opening a huge door on a heated space every time you moved smaller items like sleds, snowblower, etc. One trick with smaller doors is to select a size that allows a straight vertical wall mount track. You would not lose any usable indoor work/storage area because of the tracks. The big door would really help utilize the entire building when desired. Bifolds and hydraulic doors are spendy. They can be skinned to match other doors or exterior if you go that route. Standard overhead big doors are cheaper. The door panels can be extremely efficient for heat loss too. I see more loss through the edge opening seals.

 

[dfattack]

Another group of excellent comments. I'm not going to reply to all of them but I like the electrical outlet ideas and good input.

The size of the shop evolved due to my requirements and my butler's advice , not because I wanted a particular size. Based on the various trailer and toys I have plus wanting some room for expansion just in case. One day I might want a pontoon boat. My uncle may want to store his Chris craft during the winter and son may have his own boat one day. I'm trying to think ahead and not end up with a packed building from day one.

Floor drains. Over the last 25 years I have built 4 garages with in floor heat all with floor drains with two having triple basin systems due to building code requirements. My lake house doesn't have them since they weren't required. I use trench drains with removable cast iron grills. At the lake I ran the drain lines to a buried plastic 50 gallon drum with the bottom cut off. The ground is basically sand so it worked out great. The inlet pipe is cut in towards the top and water enters into the drum and slowly leaches into the ground. I don't do any work where oil or gas spill onto the floor so it's not like I'm dumping those chemicals into the ground. All I do is wash the trucks and toys so mostly soap and water. I do have an over flow at the top of the opposite side of the drum to grade. I put a grill on this so my amigos (chipmunks) don't get in and get stuck. The other two garages I built the drains went to the septic system or city sewer and installed the triple basins. I commented on that in a previous post. This all works well. 1/4"/foot works well for drainage to the drains. fjr4me, running to daylight has not posed any problems for me in the two garages I did this. There are traps under the trench drains so I'm sure this helps with back drafts. My plumber once told me to fill traps that weren't used much with vegetable oil since it doesn't evaporate as fast as water does. I will say it works, but he also checks for gas leaks with a lighter so who knows

Biggest hurdle I have now is finding an architect. I had plans drawn up in 2010 for a 50X100' building but after putting boats and trailer on the plan to scale i realized I had to go wider to achieve the layout I wanted. That architect I used back then isn't doing that kind of work anymore and is building houses now so I'm on the hunt. I'm not putting up a pole building so I can't use one of the pole building companies for the plans.

I've become familiar with in floor heat over the years and pretty much know what I'm doing with that and I won't have a cold section and heated section, all one and the same. The boiler technology is pretty awesome now and shouldn't take too much energy to heat if it's insulated properly.

Thankful for all the comments and it's helping me get ideas. Appreciate everyone's input.

 

[dfattack]

This is a great thread and timely for me also. Thanks dfattack!!

I'm in the process of building a 30' x 60' with 14' sidewalls. The township I'm in only allows up to 1800 sq/ft for up to 1.5 acres.
It will have radiant in-floor heat in the entire shop. My questions to the group revolves around floor drains at the moment.

1. What is everyone using for drains?
I'm thinking of going with a trench drain. Tuf-Tite TR-1 presently, but willing to make a change, if there is a better solution.

2. How much of the 60' length would be suggested for drainage?
At the moment I was thinking of 18' of drain centered in the shop with the entire floor sloped to the drain.

3. If the drain is "daylighted", is that a problem for cold air coming into the shop in winter?
Does everyone use oil separators?
Is it better to go to a separate tank and then to daylight or septic field?

Any and all suggestions for a "best" drain system are greatly appreciated.

I think the drain location and layout depends on your intended use and layout you plan on having. In my situation I plan on one long aisle from end to end on the long dimension...off to one side. In this case out of 120' I may put 80' of drains?? If I pull in the trailer full of snow I want all the melting snow to flow to a drain. This aisle is where I would do all the washing of the toys too. I've been thinking about this shop for a long time now and pretty much have all the plans in my head. This thread was to consider things I may have not even considered and am glad others can benefit too!

 

[moose822]

You may want to look into Raynor garage doors. They are made in Dixon, IL and are only sold through dealers that install and service the doors. They are the best quality doors in the industry. In full disclosure, I am an engineer at Raynor.

 

[favoritos]

@dfattack , Gotta love your plumber story. The lighter test sounds like the mechanic taste test.
To the daylight drain question. I have one with a trap and one that is a straight shot. I've had the trap plug with sediment fairly often. Road debris/sand has been the biggest culprit with slow melting and settling. If you are doing a trench drain I'd still recommend a trap, but plan on an easy clean out method.
My straight shot system does not have a trench drain. I went with three "bays" that slope to a simple opening in each. The covers are basic.
Something like this style.

EZ-FLO 43472 5" Dia 4" Pipe Gray/Satin Stainless Steel Gripper Floor Drain Cover

PlumbMaster offers a complete line of plumbing products, including 5 Dia 4 Pipe Gray/Satin Stainless Steel Gripper Floor Drain Cover. Free shipping over $99. Same day shipping before 5pm EST.

www.plumbmaster.com

The system looks super clean and holds no water. Biggest disadvantage is the multi plane floor slope. It makes the concrete pour more challenging.
I do get stack effect air flow in the drain system without the trap assembly. I put painter tape over the grate holes until snow covers the outside outlet. The tape trick works slick. I'm kinda obsessive with a temp gun and check openings and walls on all my buildings.
I will mention that I've also had the daylight drain outlets freeze on both systems. I put a little bit of ice melt or salt in those drains in seasons with hard freezing before snow cover. It works well since the mixture is denser than water and settles to the bottom of the flow system. (outlet opening) Might be something to keep in mind if your boiler condensate runs into your drain system.

 

[dfattack]

@dfattack , Gotta love your plumber story. The lighter test sounds like the mechanic taste test.
To the daylight drain question. I have one with a trap and one that is a straight shot. I've had the trap plug with sediment fairly often. Road debris/sand has been the biggest culprit with slow melting and settling. If you are doing a trench drain I'd still recommend a trap, but plan on an easy clean out method.
My straight shot system does not have a trench drain. I went with three "bays" that slope to a simple opening in each. The covers are basic.
Something like this style.

EZ-FLO 43472 5" Dia 4" Pipe Gray/Satin Stainless Steel Gripper Floor Drain Cover

PlumbMaster offers a complete line of plumbing products, including 5 Dia 4 Pipe Gray/Satin Stainless Steel Gripper Floor Drain Cover. Free shipping over $99. Same day shipping before 5pm EST.

www.plumbmaster.com

The system looks super clean and holds no water. Biggest disadvantage is the multi plane floor slope. It makes the concrete pour more challenging.
I do get stack effect air flow in the drain system without the trap assembly. I put painter tape over the grate holes until snow covers the outside outlet. The tape trick works slick. I'm kinda obsessive with a temp gun and check openings and walls on all my buildings.
I will mention that I've also had the daylight drain outlets freeze on both systems. I put a little bit of ice melt or salt in those drains in seasons with hard freezing before snow cover. It works well since the mixture is denser than water and settles to the bottom of the flow system. (outlet opening) Might be something to keep in mind if your boiler condensate runs into your drain system.

Good info.

I use this type of drain.

Dura Slope Trench Drain System | Residential & Commercial | NDS

NDS Dura Slope Trench Drain Systems are designed to provide a solution for residential, commercial, and industrial drainage needs. Dura Slope comes in neutral and pre-sloped channel drain sections with a variety of grates, slot top grates, and radius couplings. Learn more about our Dura Slope...

www.ndspro.com

or this one

Z874-21 - Utility Chase Trench Drain System

Zurn Z-874-21 Pre-Sloped Trench Drainage System. High Density Polyethylene drain channel with 1.00 Percent bottom slope. All sections modular 80 lengths with interlocking ends. Complete with heavy-duty Dura-Coated steel frame at surface, combination anchor tabs/leveling devices at appropriate...

www.zurn.com

I have never had any issues (yet) with anything clogging in part because I don't rinse leaves or any solids down the drain and I rinse down the floor so much that I think the high water flow helps keep the lines clear. Who knows. Thank God I haven't had issues.

You are correct getting the slope/pitch correct does make it challenging for the concrete crews but I've always worked with guys I know and they understand me. Unfortunatley on this job I will be using someone for the first time, but I will try to get as much slope detail on the plans so they know what they are getting into.

 

[favoritos]

I have a few of those NDS drains. They are nice and compact for a clean look. The grates stay put and are still pretty easy to remove.

My sediment issues came from junk melting off the vehicles. It is pretty amazing how much stuff is in those ice clods. I sweep the floors quite often, but it must wash in as the vehicles melt.

BTW, as a consumer, I can vouch for the Raynor residential doors. I'm going to give @moose822 , and their gang a plug on that topic. Going back to my obsession with a temp gun, they are efficient. The product support side has been downright incredible in my experience.

 

[dfattack]

I have a few of those NDS drains. They are nice and compact for a clean look. The grates stay put and are still pretty easy to remove.

My sediment issues came from junk melting off the vehicles. It is pretty amazing how much stuff is in those ice clods. I sweep the floors quite often, but it must wash in as the vehicles melt.

BTW, as a consumer, I can vouch for the Raynor residential doors. I'm going to give @moose822 , and their gang a plug on that topic. Going back to my obsession with a temp gun, they are efficient. The product support side has been downright incredible in my experience.

I usually use CHI overhead doors but I'm ALWAYS open to new ideas and products. Will for sure take a look. My current overhead doors have an R value of 14-16 I think and I've seen some of the newer doors as high as R-18. That's awesome. I keep my garages around 66 degrees and the weakest link is any windows and overhead doors so the insulation value is important.

 

[fjr4me]

dfattack and favoritos, thanks so much for all your feedback on the drains, this is very helpful and gives me a lot of information to chew on before the concrete install this upcoming spring.
I'll keep an eye on the thread for more information on shop installations overall.

Does anyone have a preferred material for the walls in a post frame building?
I'm still not sure if I'm going with steel or not.

I'll try to add a few pictures of my building in its present state.

 

[dfattack]

dfattack and favoritos, thanks so much for all your feedback on the drains, this is very helpful and gives me a lot of information to chew on before the concrete install this upcoming spring.
I'll keep an eye on the thread for more information on shop installations overall.

Does anyone have a preferred material for the walls in a post frame building?
I'm still not sure if I'm going with steel or not.

I'll try to add a few pictures of my building in its present state.

This is what I have in my garages now and will use in the new shop.

Uncover the Advantage of Engineered Wood Siding Panels | LP SmartSide

Learn about LP SmartSide Engineered Wood Siding panels and the advantages of treated wood siding sheets. Explore this beautiful, durable siding alternative.

lpcorp.com

 

[favoritos]

When you do plan out drains, I recommend planning for the boiler condensate. They produce more water than you might think and it works best to not have it run across the floor. I also don't like having the main drain wet all the time if possible. I ran a standpipe out right at the boiler and use a trap above the floor to block cold air.

 

[fjr4me]

This is what I have in my garages now and will use in the new shop.

Uncover the Advantage of Engineered Wood Siding Panels | LP SmartSide

Learn about LP SmartSide Engineered Wood Siding panels and the advantages of treated wood siding sheets. Explore this beautiful, durable siding alternative.

lpcorp.com

Thanks for this, I'll take a look. Are you running them horizontally?

 

[fjr4me]

When you do plan out drains, I recommend planning for the boiler condensate. They produce more water than you might think and it works best to not have it run across the floor. I also don't like having the main drain wet all the time if possible. I ran a standpipe out right at the boiler and use a trap above the floor to block cold air.

My BIL was just telling me how much condensate his boiler generates.
Where is your standpipe coming out of the boiler running to, if not the floor drain?
Thanks again for all this information!

 

[dfattack]

Thanks for this, I'll take a look. Are you running them horizontally?

Vertical.

 

[dfattack]

My BIL was just telling me how much condensate his boiler generates.
Where is your standpipe coming out of the boiler running to, if not the floor drain?
Thanks again for all this information!

I know you are asking favoritos but I usually put a reducer on the floor drain located next to the boiler to make a funnel. With the newer boilers you need to also run the condensate through a neutralizer to neutralize the pH so you don't get corrosion in the drain lines. I even have the installer run the pressure relief line to this drain as well. If that was to blow and I'm not onsite I don't want that line running indefinitely onto the floor until I arrive.

 

[frnash]

Are you looking for some seriously large doors?
Stick this: "aircraft hangar doors" in a google search (without the quotes).

---

Added later:
You could easily tuck one of these away in that 120X60X16 building:
Cessna Citation Jet/CJ/M2 series,M2 (CJ1)

Length:	42 ft. 7 in.
Height:	13 ft. 11 in.
Wingspan:	47 ft 3 in.