Dieselgate - VW TDI

snocrazy

Active member
If you have not heard.... (you have been under a rock) VW got caught with a piece of software in the tdi cars (2009 to 2015) that senses an emissions test taking place and activates all of the emission systems. When not connected, they are disabled giving more power and fuel mileage.

The CEO just announced his resignation. Dealers have been told to stop selling any new or used TDI models.

It sounds like it can be corrected with a software update to the ECU. But how will this impact the mileage and power?
Will owners get any kind of kickback if the mileage and power is less than advertised?

This is going to be real interesting to see how it all goes down.
Wonder if other companies are doing the same thing?

I drive a 2006 TDI. The last year before the emissions crack down. There were no tdis in the usa in 2007 or 2008 because the could not meet the emissions.
KBB lists my car with 200k on it at over 6k. Wonder if this will make the value hold even more or go up.
 
Yeah man. Going to be interesting. I bought a new Passat TDI 3 months ago. The sticker claimed about 41 or 42 MPG's if I recall correctly. The dealer told me to expect more than that which I thought was odd, but it has turned out to be true. I now have about 9500 miles on the car and so far, it's getting over 47 mpg. This is actual math and not the on board calculation. I find this to be impressive and will be disappointed if after a recall to correct this, it goes way down. I'm certainly not overly concerned about this issue but it will be entertaining to watch this unfold.
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
Your mileage will probably drop down to 28-30. If you aren't forced to get the recall done, don't!
 
With a recall, I would expect a drop to be at, or close to what VW claimed on the new vehicle sticker. To the point made above by snocrazy, I would expect VW to have some damage control via kickbacks if it drops below that. If it were to drop to 28 - 30, that would be far below what their gas models get. I completely agree with you though, Skylar. I am not having this recall done until I am forced to. Perhaps I should start to look forward to the 2019 Apple Electric model. Yes I know,,,, this a fodder for a new topic.
 

whitedust

Well-known member
Somebody at VW is going to jail this is no small thing! Everybody got screwed including the environment!
 

slimcake

Well-known member
Boy I could type for hours on this subject... As a farm machinery dealer this whole emissions thing really pisses me off. Drove the cost way up. Over 10 percent in most cases. dozens of new components. 1000's of new error codes. Bunch of BS!!! What I cannont understand is if that VW gets almost 50 mpg without the emissions but only 30 mpg with the emissions how the **** IS THAT GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
EXACTLY! The epa is all passed off, environmentalists are pissed off, yet, not thing is ever said about the emissions jet aircraft emit!
 

ezra

Well-known member
Somebody at VW is going to jail this is no small thing! Everybody got screwed including the environment!

BS the way they test the small diesel emissions is a joke. the environment is deff no worse for the wear from VW oil burners that are pushing 50mpg and U never see a cloud coming out the pipe of a Audi or VW or Porsche. the USA stance on small diesels is pathetic. U cant even buy a small diesel AWD wagon in this country when my wife got he last car we looked for a small audi/vw/ benz awd wagon no go so went with a gas MB that is lucky to get 25 and the diesels in Europe and canada same car are getting 45. what is better for the environment

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EXACTLY! The epa is all passed off, environmentalists are pissed off, yet, not thing is ever said about the emissions jet aircraft emit!
u mean like Al Gores G2B private jet he flies around in to tell us how we are destroying the world

or Hillery doing the same thing same fuel guzzling jet as Al has . no no cant have these green champions flying on some PO S learjet no they need room after telling us how she is going to save us by a rally to block the keystone pipe line ?
 
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whitedust

Well-known member
BS the way they test the small diesel emissions is a joke. the environment is deff no worse for the wear from VW oil burners that are pushing 50mpg and U never see a cloud coming out the pipe of a Audi or VW or Porsche. the USA stance on small diesels is pathetic. U cant even buy a small diesel AWD wagon in this country when my wife got he last car we looked for a small audi/vw/ benz awd wagon no go so went with a gas MB that is lucky to get 25 and the diesels in Europe and canada same car are getting 45. what is better for the environment

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u mean like Al Gores G2B private jet he flies around in to tell us how we are destroying the world

Emission laws are the same for all autos sold in USA. I dont have a problem with clean diesel as sold in Europe but does not meet emission standards here. To set your software to fool emission standards is just plain wrong on soooooo many levels. The purchasing public was mislead as well. When this is over and done heads will roll, huge fines will be handed out & if leads back to a person approving this action jail time is possible. Unreal that this deception was mass produced.....I have no idea what VW was thinking?
 

joks79

Member
Boy I could type for hours on this subject... As a farm machinery dealer this whole emissions thing really pisses me off. Drove the cost way up. Over 10 percent in most cases. dozens of new components. 1000's of new error codes. Bunch of BS!!! What I cannont understand is if that VW gets almost 50 mpg without the emissions but only 30 mpg with the emissions how the **** IS THAT GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT


100% agree. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if more manufacturers aren't doing the same thing. So how long before the government is either supplying the software to the OEMs?

I have a Jetta and won't get any fix for awhile! I also have a Ford diesel with the DEF system. Gotta love the drop in MPG during regen. I bet if they didn't have that system it would be getting mid 20's
 

ezra

Well-known member
Emission laws are the same for all autos sold in USA. I dont have a problem with clean diesel as sold in Europe but does not meet emission standards here. To set your software to fool emission standards is just plain wrong on soooooo many levels. The purchasing public was mislead as well. When this is over and done heads will roll, huge fines will be handed out & if leads back to a person approving this action jail time is possible. Unreal that this deception was mass produced.....I have no idea what VW was thinking?

exactly and the test is flawed to say the least . all tested the same MPG has no bearing in the equation.
from what I understand is is like this
cold start then 505 seconds at speeds from 0 to 55
then cold start stabilized 864 seconds at speeds from 0 to 55 again
then hot start 505 seconds from 0 to 55
total test time 1874 seconds 11.4mi at a average speed of 21mph .
calculate emissions.
MPG has no bearing on results
shocking a test like that makes a toyota Camry with a v6 getting 23mpg look better than a gulf getting over 50mpg on diesel but what one is really better for the environment ? reality none but the big joke is the unregulated container ships 1 ship puts out the same emissions as 50million cars . yeah that vw was out to rape mother earth .screw the EPA they are nothing but a power hungry bureaucracy give way to much unregulated power
 
L

lenny

Guest
Shhhhbhhh, I hear some peeps know how to make adjustment. If your forced to have dealer adjust computer, just readjust on your buddies laptop, it will be that simple
 

snobuilder

Well-known member
Emission laws are the same for all autos sold in USA. I dont have a problem with clean diesel as sold in Europe but does not meet emission standards here. To set your software to fool emission standards is just plain wrong on soooooo many levels. The purchasing public was mislead as well. When this is over and done heads will roll, huge fines will be handed out & if leads back to a person approving this action jail time is possible. Unreal that this deception was mass produced.....I have no idea what VW was thinking?

I believe that VW knows a h.elluva alot more about efficient diesel technology than some board approved by the unelected EPA.
This kinda gumption makes me want to go out and buy a TDI!

Do the math....better fuel mileage means less fuel burned which equals less polution....DUH!
 

Hoosier

Well-known member
I believe that VW knows a h.elluva alot more about efficient diesel technology than some board approved by the unelected EPA.
This kinda gumption makes me want to go out and buy a TDI!

Do the math....better fuel mileage means less fuel burned which equals less polution....DUH!

Amen. The unelected EPA is way too powerful! To quote what I saw somewhere else: If only we had a document that protected the rights of individuals and limited the scope of the federal government.
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
You guys are kinda missing the point. It is not an issue of testing methodology, or clean diesel vs European diesel, or the EPA, or Al Gore.

The issue is that VW, the world's largest automaker, deliberately and intentionally wrote code into their diesels that analyzed when the car was being tested and changed the performance of the engine to pass the test. This was also used as a selling point to consumers who thought they were buying "clean diesel".

The code was intentional, not accidental, VW has already admitted to it and the CEO has resigned. It has nothing at all to do with Hillary, Al, EPA, evil liberals, Trump, Obama, Bush, or my buddy Elmo from St. Paul. It is the world's largest car maker intentionally rigging their cars, thus duping 11 million people and many governments around the world. The cars cannot perform as advertised, so let's just cheat the test!

That there is some big balls!

Maybe Bill Belichick should be the new CEO of VW
 

eao

Active member
Seen this in another forum...

Long before Volkswagen admitted to cheating on emissions tests for millions of cars worldwide, the automobile industry, Volkswagen included, had a well-known record of sidestepping regulation and even duping regulators.
For decades, car companies found ways to rig mileage and emissions testing data. In Europe, some automakers have taped up test cars’ doors and grilles to bolster the aerodynamics. Others have used “superlubricants” to reduce friction in the car’s engine to a degree that would be impossible in real-world driving conditions.
Automakers have even been known make test vehicles lighter by removing the back seats.
Cheating in the United States started as soon as governments began regulating automotive emissions in the early 1970s. In 1972, certification of Ford Motor’s new cars was held up after the Environmental Protection Agency found that the company had violated rules by performing constant maintenance of its test cars, which lowered emissions but did not reflect driving conditions in the real world. Ford walked away with a $7 million fine.
The next year, the agency fined Volkswagen $120,000 after finding that the company had installed devices intended specifically to shut down a vehicle’s pollution control systems. In 1974, Chrysler had to recall more than 800,000 cars because similar devices were found in the radiators of its cars.
Such gadgets became known as “defeat devices,” and they have long been banned by the E.P.A. But their use continued to proliferate, and they became more sophisticated, as illustrated by Volkswagen’s admission this week that 11 million diesel cars worldwide were equipped with software used to cheat on emissions tests..
Beyond emissions, the industry has long been contemptuous of regulation. Henry Ford II called airbags “a lot of baloney,” and executives have bristled at rules requiring higher mileage per gallon. Robert A. Lutz, the former General Motors vice chairman and Chrysler president, often said the rules were like “trying to cure obesity by requiring clothing manufacturers to make smaller sizes.”
The universe of automotive scandals has been a broad and often tragic one, including Ford’s 1978 recalls of 1.5 million Pintos after evidence emerged that its gas tanks were prone to catch fire during impacts. The Chrysler Corporation was indicted in 1987 on charges of disconnecting the odometers of 60,000 cars used by executives and then selling them as new. The Ford-Firestone scandal that started in the late 1990s was linked to 271 deaths. And more than 23 million cars have been recalled by 11 automakers over airbags made by Takata that could violently rupture in an accident.
Misleading gas mileage claims have disturbed regulators and consumers who find cars often use more gas than promised on the window sticker. Last year, the Korean automakers Hyundai Motor and Kia Motors paid $300 million in a settlement with the Justice Department and the E.P.A. for overstating the mileage of 1.2 million vehicles. Ford also cut the mileage rating of one of its hybrid electric vehicles in 2013 after complaints, and the E.P.A. has imposed stiffer fines for overstating mileage claims.
No matter the offense, penalties have often been fleeting. Executives are not jailed; fines are manageable.
In the United States, automakers’ lobbying has ensured that the statute giving powers to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration “has no specific criminal penalty for selling defective or noncompliant vehicles,” says Joan Claybrook, a former administrator of the agency and longtime auto safety advocate. There are no criminal penalties under laws applying to the E.P.A. for violations of motor vehicle clean air rules, though there is a division of the Justice Department devoted to violations of environmental law.
“I don’t see them changing this behavior unless criminal penalties are enacted into law that allow the prosecutor to put the executives in jail,” Ms. Claybrook said.
Enforcement outside the United States is more rare, and other major car markets, like Germany and Japan, tend to be protective of their domestic automakers. This year, the South Korean authorities claimed that Audi and Toyota had inflated fuel economy claims on two models — the Audi A6 sedan and the Toyota Prius gas-electric hybrid — by over 10 percent. The two automakers have denied the allegations.
The South Korean government’s Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport had already accused G.M.’s Korean subsidiary, GM Korea, of inflating the mileage claims on the Chevrolet Cruze, forcing the automaker to revise its stated mileage last year and to draft a plan to compensate Cruze owners.
Software gives automakers a new advantage. Modern cars can sense collisions and start braking before drivers do and are even on the verge of driving themselves. So perhaps it is no surprise they can also sense when they are in a laboratory and, knowing that, put their best foot forward.
The advent of the computerized car and the use of software to dupe regulators have been years in the making. General Motors paid $45 million in 1995 and recalled nearly half a million Cadillacs that were equipped with a chip that shut off emissions control systems while the air-conditioner was being used, to improve the car’s performance.
In 1998, the E.P.A. announced a settlement of nearly $1 billion against long-haul truck engine manufacturers for violations similar to Volkswagen’s — using software to optimize the performance of diesel engines during laboratory testing.
Some believe that using software to cheat on laboratory results goes beyond Volkswagen.
While officially stated fuel efficiency and carbon dioxide emissions figures have steadily improved over the years, real-world tests showed no corresponding improvement, according to the Brussels-based European Federation for Transport and Environment, an advocacy group. In fact, the group’s testing found that the average diesel car was producing emissions five times as high as what was permitted. There were vehicles from BMW and Opel that emitted 10 times much pollution on the road as in the lab.
The difference between the lab and real-world results swelled to 40 percent last year, on average, from 8 percent in 2002, the group also found.
“We call it the tip of the iceberg,” said Jos Dings, the director of Transport and Environment. “We don’t think this will be limited to Volkswagen. If you look at the testing numbers for the other manufacturers, they are just as bad.”
He said the group had found gaps in both emissions of pollutants and in overall fuel efficiency.
Greg Archer, another official at the group and a former director at Britain’s renewable fuels regulator, said, “There is something very suspicious about the way in which these tests are being passed, and it strongly suggests that companies are using defeat devices in the laboratory.”
The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represents the industry, referred questions to Volkswagen and called the matter “a company-specific issue about their products.”
In a statement on Tuesday, Volkswagen said it did “not tolerate any kind of violation of laws whatsoever.”
“It is and remains the top priority of the Board of Management,” the company added, “to win back lost trust and to avert damage to our customers.”
Winning back trust could prove difficult, especially while the company is doing damage control. In recent days, Volkswagen has been taking down copies of its pro-diesel ads from YouTube.
Dan Becker, director of the safe climate campaign at the Center for Auto Safety, said that in 2011 he was among a group of environmental lawyers and engineers that traveled to Germany to hear automakers make a pitch for diesel cars. He said that while BMW and Daimler had taken the group’s concerns seriously, Volkswagen officials had not.
“They talked down to us,” he said of the company. “They would definitely win an Academy Award for most egregious automaker. And this is one of the companies that tried desperately to get Americans to buy diesel. I think they just sank that ship.”
 

Hoosier

Well-known member
You guys are kinda missing the point. It is not an issue of testing methodology, or clean diesel vs European diesel, or the EPA, or Al Gore.

The issue is that VW, the world's largest automaker, deliberately and intentionally wrote code into their diesels that analyzed when the car was being tested and changed the performance of the engine to pass the test. This was also used as a selling point to consumers who thought they were buying "clean diesel".

The code was intentional, not accidental, VW has already admitted to it and the CEO has resigned. It has nothing at all to do with Hillary, Al, EPA, evil liberals, Trump, Obama, Bush, or my buddy Elmo from St. Paul. It is the world's largest car maker intentionally rigging their cars, thus duping 11 million people and many governments around the world. The cars cannot perform as advertised, so let's just cheat the test!

That there is some big balls!

Maybe Bill Belichick should be the new CEO of VW

On a related topic, what do the politicians think is going to happen when we sign the global warming agreements with other countries such as China? They are all going to cheat like crazy and our manufacturers are going to suffer as a result.
 

heckler56

Active member
You guys are kinda missing the point. It is not an issue of testing methodology, or clean diesel vs European diesel, or the EPA, or Al Gore.

Cetane is the Octane rating for diesel. In the good old US, our Cetane is less than 40% - closer to 36% while in Europe their diesel is better refined and gets into the 90's like our petrol fuels. If we cold have that better diesel here we would be lining p to buy them like the Europeans.

The issue is that VW, the world's largest automaker, deliberately and intentionally wrote code into their diesels that analyzed when the car was being tested and changed the performance of the engine to pass the test. This was also used as a selling point to consumers who thought they were buying "clean diesel".

Not sure when it comes to any fuel what "clean" means.

The code was intentional, not accidental, VW has already admitted to it and the CEO has resigned. It has nothing at all to do with Hillary, Al, EPA, evil liberals, Trump, Obama, Bush, or my buddy Elmo from St. Paul. It is the world's largest car maker intentionally rigging their cars, thus duping 11 million people and many governments around the world. The cars cannot perform as advertised, so let's just cheat the test!

Just like GM or Toyota did something to get to the top.

That there is some big balls!

Maybe Bill Belichick should be the new CEO of VW


I will be watching to see if people start dumping these used in the market and will scoop one up. This will be a boom for the aftermarket tuners, which, have likely already defeated code and passed emissions.
 

heckler56

Active member
It appears my comments were embedded in the Quote. These comments were made by me and not dcsnomo.


Cetane is the Octane rating for diesel. In the good old US, our Cetane is less than 40% - closer to 36% while in Europe their diesel is better refined and gets into the 90's like our petrol fuels. If we cold have that better diesel here we would be lining p to buy them like the Europeans.


Not sure when it comes to any fuel what "clean" means.


Just like GM or Toyota did something to get to the top.
 
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