Finally some real EV/Truck stats and...... WOW!!!

favoritos

Well-known member
We have certainly taken a strange approach to bringing EV to the masses. I'm not against the idea, but the implementation is seriously flawed.
These big, fancy, feature loaded vehicles are a bad combination along with the idea that we can do long duration work without a quick repower.
The current idea of "waiting" for juice to load makes it tough to use. Winter doesn't help for a number of reasons.
If we continue with the current approach, the implementation will stall. After the thrill of new and fancy wears down, the repair bills on those things will kill the market.

Oddly, we have places where electric is the primary power source and has been for years. Walk into a big warehouse and look for an ICE powered rig. I've spent a lot of time in some big facilities. We had hundreds of rigs in the biggest buildings. Waiting for charging wasn't an option. There were a few different approaches to a solution. Two rigs for every operator were the early approach. The operator would run the rig until it was dead and swap to a different machine while the first charged. It's spendy because of extra equipment, and it's slow. It's also the same basic approach we are using with vehicles.
One of my last facilities went big bucks into a fast swap battery setup. Forklifts are happy with weight and we used the old lead acid batteries, but it still costs money when you pop for a couple hundred of those things. The initial capital of the charging - changing stations was a tough pill. Monitoring payoff was interesting when looking at total equipment costs. We were in the 3+ year range. When we added in waiting down time and shutdowns, the payoff was down to a year. Running equipment was easier with less wasted time. Operators could swap batteries in about ten minutes.

As human beings on the go, we know that sitting around and waiting isn't fun. We inherently know it isn't efficient. It's worse for those of us in the central part of the country. We have further to drive and we are often working the vehicle. Add in the cold weather factor and the pill gets harder to swallow. It feels like an expensive concept is being shoved down our throats.

Our current approach has too many escalating expenses for it to continue. As human beings, we inherently know this is also a bad idea. Living in this part of the country, it is even more apparent.

Another approach may be possible. Little juicers for running errands and simple vehicles for hard work might be a workable solution. We're not there yet and I don't see our market heading in that direction. That approach would be hard for myself. I like vehicles that are fun to drive, look decent, and hold up for the long haul without breaking the bank. I'm also trying to cover most of the bases with one main vehicle. In reality, most of us like our cars and trucks. We also want a car or truck that we like.
 

pclark

Well-known member
We have certainly taken a strange approach to bringing EV to the masses. I'm not against the idea, but the implementation is seriously flawed.
These big, fancy, feature loaded vehicles are a bad combination along with the idea that we can do long duration work without a quick repower.
The current idea of "waiting" for juice to load makes it tough to use. Winter doesn't help for a number of reasons.
If we continue with the current approach, the implementation will stall. After the thrill of new and fancy wears down, the repair bills on those things will kill the market.

Oddly, we have places where electric is the primary power source and has been for years. Walk into a big warehouse and look for an ICE powered rig. I've spent a lot of time in some big facilities. We had hundreds of rigs in the biggest buildings. Waiting for charging wasn't an option. There were a few different approaches to a solution. Two rigs for every operator were the early approach. The operator would run the rig until it was dead and swap to a different machine while the first charged. It's spendy because of extra equipment, and it's slow. It's also the same basic approach we are using with vehicles.
One of my last facilities went big bucks into a fast swap battery setup. Forklifts are happy with weight and we used the old lead acid batteries, but it still costs money when you pop for a couple hundred of those things. The initial capital of the charging - changing stations was a tough pill. Monitoring payoff was interesting when looking at total equipment costs. We were in the 3+ year range. When we added in waiting down time and shutdowns, the payoff was down to a year. Running equipment was easier with less wasted time. Operators could swap batteries in about ten minutes.

As human beings on the go, we know that sitting around and waiting isn't fun. We inherently know it isn't efficient. It's worse for those of us in the central part of the country. We have further to drive and we are often working the vehicle. Add in the cold weather factor and the pill gets harder to swallow. It feels like an expensive concept is being shoved down our throats.

Our current approach has too many escalating expenses for it to continue. As human beings, we inherently know this is also a bad idea. Living in this part of the country, it is even more apparent.

Another approach may be possible. Little juicers for running errands and simple vehicles for hard work might be a workable solution. We're not there yet and I don't see our market heading in that direction. That approach would be hard for myself. I like vehicles that are fun to drive, look decent, and hold up for the long haul without breaking the bank. I'm also trying to cover most of the bases with one main vehicle. In reality, most of us like our cars and trucks. We also want a car or truck that we like.
You explained that very well Favoritos, I as well am not against it, but I see the implementation hitting a brick wall already. It cannot stand on it's own and if the taxpayers have to subsidize it then the burden is on us as usual which just isn't fair. We need new minds on these projects that are realistic and to project realtime dates and realtime places where they will be able to build a market for EV's, it's certainly not going to be in the upper Midwest except for the cities of MSP, MKE, Chicago, Detroit metro areas or anyone who has the F-you money to throw around on and expensive hobby like this. I wish them well but please don't expect me to take the hit for this. Just thinking responsibly, not going to apologize for that, I'm out...................
 

ICT Sledder

Active member
Maybe there shouldn't be any "implementation" at all. Perhaps we should allow the free market to find the point in time when the EV becomes a superior product to the ICE. Wild thoughts of an extremist channeled through the thinking of folks like the Founding Fathers, Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek, Thomas Sowell, and other such wild insurrectionists.

My sister has a Tesla Y, and her husband an S. They're not greenies - they just like the cool tech and have the disposable income to throw away. They both complain all the time about what a pain it is to simply secure a spot at a supercharger without getting into a fistfight in their DFW metro home. I simply remind them how easy it is to use a gas pump, and how quickly I can fill up my modern government-mandated gas cans. The ones I have to manually vent in the garage so they don't eventually blow up the house. That's obviously after I attack my government-mandated low flow toilet with a plunger for the second time today, rinse my hair for the fourteenth time under my government-mandated low flow shower head, and put on some clothes that came out of my government-mandated HE washer and dryer that still somehow come out smelling like the underside of large, long-haired dog suffering from intestinal issues.
 
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snomoman

Active member
Maybe there shouldn't be any "implementation" at all. Perhaps we should allow the free market to find the point in time when the EV becomes a superior product to the ICE. Wild thoughts of an extremist channeled through the thinking of folks like the Founding Fathers, Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek, Thomas Sowell, and other such wild insurrectionists.

My sister has a Tesla Y, and her husband an S. They're not greenies - they just like the cool tech and have the disposable income to throw away. They both complain all the time about what a pain it is to simply secure a spot at a supercharger without getting into a fistfight in their DFW metro home. I simply remind them how easy it is to use a gas pump, and how quickly I can fill up my modern government-mandated gas cans. The ones I have to manually vent in the garage so they don't eventually blow up the house. That's obviously after I attack my government-mandated low flow toilet with a plunger for the second time today, rinse my hair for the fourteenth time under my government-mandated low flow shower head, and put on some clothes that came out of my government-mandated HE washer and dryer that still somehow come out smelling like the underside of large, long-haired dog suffering from intestinal issues.
Now we’re talking…
 

whitedust

Well-known member
Maybe there shouldn't be any "implementation" at all. Perhaps we should allow the free market to find the point in time when the EV becomes a superior product to the ICE. Wild thoughts of an extremist channeled through the thinking of folks like the Founding Fathers, Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek, Thomas Sowell, and other such wild insurrectionists.

My sister has a Tesla Y, and her husband an S. They're not greenies - they just like the cool tech and have the disposable income to throw away. They both complain all the time about what a pain it is to simply secure a spot at a supercharger without getting into a fistfight in their DFW metro home. I simply remind them how easy it is to use a gas pump, and how quickly I can fill up my modern government-mandated gas cans. The ones I have to manually vent in the garage so they don't eventually blow up the house. That's obviously after I attack my government-mandated low flow toilet with a plunger for the second time today, rinse my hair for the fourteenth time under my government-mandated low flow shower head, and put on some clothes that came out of my government-mandated HE washer and dryer that still somehow come out smelling like the underside of large, long-haired dog suffering from intestinal issues.
My son inlaw is a plumber and the new green buildings he works in Milwaukee the water pressure is so low out of faucets it is useless. Lol
 

dfattack

Well-known member
My son inlaw is a plumber and the new green buildings he works in Milwaukee the water pressure is so low out of faucets it is useless. Lol
I bet we flush the low flow toilets more than we would with the old fashioned higher GPF toilets. You do it just so it doesn't plug up. the left doesn't have any common sense, even for their own causes.
 

garageguy

Well-known member
i took the baffle out of my toilet taking it from 1.6 to maybe 2.5 I have well and septic, let the water and turds fly!!! as long as there is natural gas available I will use my gas dryer and gas stove and will put in a gas fireplace if I want one. they just put in a natural gas electricity generation plant up here to charge all the greenies cars.
 

ICT Sledder

Active member
Why can't life just be simple like it used to be?
Because career bureaucrats with monolithic ideology in the unelected administrative state, helped along primarily by the elected, blabbering nincompoops of the progressive left, have ideas that are so fabulous they must be mandatory.
 
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ICT Sledder

Active member
My son inlaw is a plumber and the new green buildings he works in Milwaukee the water pressure is so low out of faucets it is useless. Lol
What is fundamentally hilarious is the complete obliviousness the folks behind "water saver" stuff have of how sanitary sewers and water treatment plants work.

There's literally no need to "conserve water" if it is going down a drain. Why? Because any municipal water system - fresh water and sanitary sewer water - is a closed loop. It is pulled from the water source, provided to the consumer for use, and that which makes it back into the sanitary sewer is simply cleaned, treated and discharged back into the original water source. There's no water that needs "saving" in the first place, unless you're talking about that which actually gets consumed via drinking, cooking, yard watering, car washing, etc. The water flowing through toilets, shower heads, washing machines, etc., literally does not need "saving" because it is eventually going back to the source of where it came from.

It is all so naive, irrational and nonsensical that you can't decide if you should laugh or cry. But that is the platform that the environmental left is built upon. If not for stupid ideas from stupid thought leaders for consumption of their stupid adherents, the whole thing falls apart.
 

dfattack

Well-known member
What is fundamentally hilarious is the complete obliviousness the folks behind "water saver" stuff have of how sanitary sewers and water treatment plants work.

There's literally no need to "conserve water" if it is going down a drain. Why? Because any municipal water system - fresh water and sanitary sewer water - is a closed loop. It is pulled from the water source, provided to the consumer for use, and that which makes it back into the sanitary sewer is simply cleaned, treated and discharged back into the original water source. There's no water that needs "saving" in the first place, unless you're talking about that which actually gets consumed via drinking, cooking, yard watering, car washing, etc. The water flowing through toilets, shower heads, washing machines, etc., literally does not need "saving" because it is eventually going back to the source of where it came from.

It is all so naive, irrational and nonsensical that you can't decide if you should laugh or cry. But that is the platform that the environmental left is built upon. If not for stupid ideas from stupid thought leaders for consumption of their stupid adherents, the whole thing falls apart.
That is exactly why I'm so glad I have my own well and water treatment system in my house. Plus a reverse osmosis for drinking. YUCK! :poop:
 

heckler56

Active member
Learning from others is not our best strong-suit. Batteries are stored energy and European studies show that BEVs work environmentally against ICE only when the concepts of wind or sun energy are used for charging. The UK went all in to build a wind farm in the ocean several years ago at an estimated cost ~$250B (it might Trillions). That wind farm will not be completed for a couple more years at a now est. of $800B. The UK has the highest cost in the world for their electricity and have recently like all the other European counties turned back on coal burning plants. I acknowledge that the events of Ukraine have accelerated the return to coal but overall it is acknowledged there that the battery concept may not be the end all.
As favritos mentioned about quick change batteries in industrial applications, the Chinese have taken that same approach to BEVs using the concept of our grill propane tanks exchange. So they own most of the lithium mines and while have this exchange concept refined, guess who will become dependent on these?
I wish my grandparents were still alive so I could ask them how asbestos worked out for them 100 years ago.
 

BigSix

Active member
This is all very interesting and somewhat surprising. I do think BEV will continue to improve including the infrastructure to charge them. Remember, our ancestors probably said many of the same things about ICE powered vehicles replacing horses about 120 years ago.

I found a video on YouTube about Toyota are not and will not be manufacturing any BEVs. They will manufacture ICE, hybrids and hydrogen fueled ICE. Toyota, according to the video, thinks that there will be plenty of customers to purchase their non-BEV vehicles. Toyota is the largest automotive company in the world.
 
Like several have said, I’m all for innovation and change when it makes sense. As things currently stand, the “powers to be“ are pushing an inferior product (especially in colder climes) that relies on an electrical grid that currently isn’t capable of supporting it for the masses. I’ll keep my ICE vehicle as long as they let me keep it or when the product can meet my needs and the grid can support it.
 

pclark

Well-known member
Like several have said, I’m all for innovation and change when it makes sense. As things currently stand, the “powers to be“ are pushing an inferior product (especially in colder climes) that relies on an electrical grid that currently isn’t capable of supporting it for the masses. I’ll keep my ICE vehicle as long as they let me keep it or when the product can meet my needs and the grid can support it.
We shouldn't have to rely on "The Powers to Be" to let us keep our ICE vehicle, it should be a choice.
 

ICT Sledder

Active member
This is all very interesting and somewhat surprising. I do think BEV will continue to improve including the infrastructure to charge them. Remember, our ancestors probably said many of the same things about ICE powered vehicles replacing horses about 120 years ago.

I found a video on YouTube about Toyota are not and will not be manufacturing any BEVs. They will manufacture ICE, hybrids and hydrogen fueled ICE. Toyota, according to the video, thinks that there will be plenty of customers to purchase their non-BEV vehicles. Toyota is the largest automotive company in the world.
Ironically, ICE won out over EV even back then. True story. Not a joke.

Today, our the government overlords are extra-super-special smarter than the consumers who concluded ICE>EV 120 years ago.

What's that saying about history repeating itself?
 
We shouldn't have to rely on "The Powers to Be" to let us keep our ICE vehicle, it should be a choice.
I agree with you 100% PClark. A few short years ago, I never would’ve even thought that my vehicle choice could be in danger. Yet today with those in power pushing their radical ideas, I don’t have the confidence that an ICE vehicle will be in my garage for the long term. I’m patiently waiting for leadership with more sanity will gain power. Despite the results of policies enacted beginning in January of 2021, voters still didn’t produce a big Red Wave in Nov 2022. That doesn’t bode well for Nov 2024. I repeat, I’m not against change. When an EV can meet my needs and the grid is capable of supporting it, I will have an open mind when choosing a vehicle.
 
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