Finally some real EV/Truck stats and...... WOW!!!

[heckler56]

I agree with you 100% PClark. A few short years ago, I never would’ve even thought that my vehicle choice could be in danger. Yet today with those in power pushing their radical ideas, I don’t have the confidence that an ICE vehicle will be in my garage for the long term. I’m patiently waiting for leadership with more sanity will gain power. Despite the results of policies enacted beginning in January of 2021, voters still didn’t produce a big Red Wave in Nov 2022. That doesn’t bode well for Nov 2024. I repeat, I’m not against change. When an EV can meet my needs and the grid is capable of supporting it, I will have an open mind when choosing a vehicle.

I don’t think there will be a demise for ICE vehicles. Once BEV’s get propelled into the consumers garages the media will shift to highlight the con’s of BEV’s. A battery fire is instantaneous and virtually uncontainable. Put that into a garage in a stick built home and you have less than minutes to escape. Accidents present a smilier problem for occupants inside the vehicle and create safety issues (electrocution) for any first responders. Speaking of accidents the highway safety institute is beginning to make noise as to the weight of these vehicles and the damage they can cause to smaller vehicles. Speaking of weight, this impacts road surfaces and exacerbates our already declining road system. Finally the grid, we see in areas like Texas and California utilities breaking down, what happens when you add all this 220v charging to those systems? Try to outrun a forest fire with a low battery in bumper to bumper traffic and when one battery goes dead in the middle of the road it effects everyone behind them.
I believe they do have a place in the overall options available for consumers. Inner city for one. Regenerative braking helps charge the vehicle as you stop and go, stop and go.
Politicians don’t solve problems, they unintentionally create them.

 

[heckler56]

To stick to the original topic, here are my real world stats on my BEV. 30 months, 11,196 miles, $840 in increased electricity costs (I know this because my charger is run on a app, which also sends data to my utility). Basically running at $0.075 cents per mile.

In the 30 months of ownership the only maintenance was replacing wiper blades which the dealer did for free. Someday tires, shocks and any electrical gremlins will be on my dime. The batteries carry a 8 year warranty but when that goes away it is unknown what that true cost then will be.

 

[ICT Sledder]

To stick to the original topic, here are my real world stats on my BEV. 30 months, 11,196 miles, $840 in increased electricity costs (I know this because my charger is run on a app, which also sends data to my utility). Basically running at $0.075 cents per mile.

In the 30 months of ownership the only maintenance was replacing wiper blades which the dealer did for free. Someday tires, shocks and any electrical gremlins will be on my dime. The batteries carry a 8 year warranty but when that goes away it is unknown what that true cost then will be.

So basically at current gas prices you have the cost equivalent of a roughly 40-45 MPG ICE? That is until 5-10 years from now when the battery is done and it becomes a sunk cost, economically-obsolete, throwaway, while those ICE vehicles of same age still have many more years as a second car, work car, or school car for kids.

Sounds like a great plan, if you suck at math and cost-benefit analysis.

 

[pclark]

I agree with you 100% PClark. A few short years ago, I never would’ve even thought that my vehicle choice could be in danger. Yet today with those in power pushing their radical ideas, I don’t have the confidence that an ICE vehicle will be in my garage for the long term. I’m patiently waiting for leadership with more sanity will gain power. Despite the results of policies enacted beginning in January of 2021, voters still didn’t produce a big Red Wave in Nov 2022. That doesn’t bode well for Nov 2024. I repeat, I’m not against change. When an EV can meet my needs and the grid is capable of supporting it, I will have an open mind when choosing a vehicle.

My thoughts exactly on what kind of leadership will prevail in this country. Lets see where this discussion takes us a year from now or will EV's really start to gain traction in the market? I am skeptical to say the least (Ford already laying off white collar jobs because of EV expenses). CampHP, I see you are from Wetmore, MI, I used to snowmobile up there 10-15 years ago, beautiful untouched snow country up there, now I spend all my riding time in Vilas and surrounding counties. With anything I just want the choice in whatever I buy and that is the way it should be, sounds like we think alike, hope you had a nice 4th!

 

[camphappyplace]

My thoughts exactly on what kind of leadership will prevail in this country. Lets see where this discussion takes us a year from now or will EV's really start to gain traction in the market? I am skeptical to say the least (Ford already laying off white collar jobs because of EV expenses). CampHP, I see you are from Wetmore, MI, I used to snowmobile up there 10-15 years ago, beautiful untouched snow country up there, now I spend all my riding time in Vilas and surrounding counties. With anything I just want the choice in whatever I buy and that is the way it should be, sounds like we think alike, hope you had a nice 4th!

Yes, I believe we think alike. It is beautiful sledding country up here. I grew up in the Yoop and started sledding in 1968 as a kid. Left for my career in 1980 but always came back for vacations (not just for sledding.) So happy to have our primary residence here after retirement so I can sled and side by side from my garage.
The future will be interesting as we all weigh our choices for vehicles…ICE, EV or ?? Happy 4th of July. Let freedom ring.

 

[heckler56]

So basically at current gas prices you have the cost equivalent of a roughly 40-45 MPG ICE? That is until 5-10 years from now when the battery is done and it becomes a sunk cost, economically-obsolete, throwaway, while those ICE vehicles of same age still have many more years as a second car, work car, or school car for kids.

Sounds like a great plan, if you suck at math and cost-benefit analysis.

I don’t disagree with you. Consideration also needs to be given to routine ICE maint like oil changes and once higher miles or age on a ICE vehicle, trans, radiator, spark plugs, fuel injectors, etc. I choose to lease the BEV to be able to give it a legitimate test. The batteries are single replaceable cells that over time will have shops that specialize in such a service, but the total battery bank going down at once, catastrophic and no “rebuilt” drop in replacements for a couple thousand $’s. I also suspect if a drive motor goes down that will be costly.

 

[old abe]

I only wish a Great, and Respected John Dee member, Grub, would still be around to be in on this discussion. He had purchased, and recieved his F 150 Lighting, however his illness prevented him to be able to physically test it out! He was great at testing, and honestly anallizing all kinds of Motive vehicles. He was also very, very thorough, no matter the branded badge. However, bottom line, the vehicle manufacturers WELL build what sells. PERIOD!

 

[wiviperman]

There is a YouTube video out there focusing on towing with the new all electric Ford Lightning, the guy testing it loads an old Model A or T on a trailer & proceeds to pull it back to his house & the range dropped to 80 miles within a short amount into the trip.
Sorry I don’t have the link, but just seeing that I don’t ever want one. Currently I’m not a big supporter of the EV push, I just don’t see any of the manufacturers being able to build a truck that can do truck things!
As goes for the actual new Ford Lightning my opinion is that it’s really sad that Ford has ruined that iconic name, for those that may not remember….the original Ford Lightning was a Muscle Truck from the 90’s and early 2000’s.
The 1st generation Lightning had a naturally aspirated 5.8 Liter V-8 that was offered in 3 colors red, white & black with painted bumpers & unique wheels.
The 2nd generation from 1999 into the early 2000’s was redesigned & featured a Supercharged 5.4 Liter V-8 & had impressive performance!
Ford really should have came up with a new name for the electric car with a pick-up box that they call the Lightning truck!

 

[pclark]

There is a YouTube video out there focusing on towing with the new all electric Ford Lightning, the guy testing it loads an old Model A or T on a trailer & proceeds to pull it back to his house & the range dropped to 80 miles within a short amount into the trip.
Sorry I don’t have the link, but just seeing that I don’t ever want one. Currently I’m not a big supporter of the EV push, I just don’t see any of the manufacturers being able to build a truck that can do truck things!
As goes for the actual new Ford Lightning my opinion is that it’s really sad that Ford has ruined that iconic name, for those that may not remember….the original Ford Lightning was a Muscle Truck from the 90’s and early 2000’s.
The 1st generation Lightning had a naturally aspirated 5.8 Liter V-8 that was offered in 3 colors red, white & black with painted bumpers & unique wheels.
The 2nd generation from 1999 into the early 2000’s was redesigned & featured a Supercharged 5.4 Liter V-8 & had impressive performance!
Ford really should have came up with a new name for the electric car with a pick-up box that they call the Lightning truck!

This EV thing was forced upon us by the current administration and the climate nuts. I'm not against EV's, but for Gods sake quit forcing this shit on us! It's getting real old!

 

[xcr440]

This EV thing was forced upon us by the current administration and the climate nuts. I'm not against EV's, but for Gods sake quit forcing this shit on us! It's getting real old!

Wouldn’t it be great if all these taxes they keep stacking on in the name of climate change could be optional??

 

[old abe]

I

This EV thing was forced upon us by the current administration and the climate nuts. I'm not against EV's, but for Gods sake quit forcing this shit on us! It's getting real old!

pclark, I absolutely understand where your at on this EV thing, I won't argue. However, if we want to be Well Heard on this, to whoever, Gov., or Co's/Corp's, we need to be spot on factual. This thing started well before Brandon became president. Yes, brandon has very aggressively overtly promoted it! But, the bottom line is the vehicle Co's/Corp's foreign, or domestic, will build what sells, and makes them $$$. They will not chase a dead horse in these days of age. Technology isn't always what we like when it arrives. But, with todays "Tech", there are many ways to improve the emissions on the internal combustion engines. So lets us push to do it! The Oil Industry doesn't like this one bit either, being due to less consumtion of what they produce! Remember this always, the FACT remains the our US Refining capacity is maxed out, and has been for quite some time! That, with the US export of Crude Oil, and Refined Products are the major two reasons for our high fuel prices. No way around that being Absolute Fact.

 

[old abe]

There is a YouTube video out there focusing on towing with the new all electric Ford Lightning, the guy testing it loads an old Model A or T on a trailer & proceeds to pull it back to his house & the range dropped to 80 miles within a short amount into the trip.
Sorry I don’t have the link, but just seeing that I don’t ever want one. Currently I’m not a big supporter of the EV push, I just don’t see any of the manufacturers being able to build a truck that can do truck things!
As goes for the actual new Ford Lightning my opinion is that it’s really sad that Ford has ruined that iconic name, for those that may not remember….the original Ford Lightning was a Muscle Truck from the 90’s and early 2000’s.
The 1st generation Lightning had a naturally aspirated 5.8 Liter V-8 that was offered in 3 colors red, white & black with painted bumpers & unique wheels.
The 2nd generation from 1999 into the early 2000’s was redesigned & featured a Supercharged 5.4 Liter V-8 & had impressive performance!
Ford really should have came up with a new name for the electric car with a pick-up box that they call the Lightning truck!

wiviperman, I am just curious, do you happen to know what size of battery pack/cell was the Lightning equipped with that they tested/evaluated? They're are several sizes available.

 

[camphappyplace]

I

pclark, I absolutely understand where your at on this EV thing, I won't argue. However, if we want to be Well Heard on this, to whoever, Gov., or Co's/Corp's, we need to be spot on factual. This thing started well before Brandon became president. Yes, brandon has very aggressively overtly promoted it! But, the bottom line is the vehicle Co's/Corp's foreign, or domestic, will build what sells, and makes them $$$. They will not chase a dead horse in these days of age. Technology isn't always what we like when it arrives. But, with todays "Tech", there are many ways to improve the emissions on the internal combustion engines. So lets us push to do it! The Oil Industry doesn't like this one bit either, being due to less consumtion of what they produce! Remember this always, the FACT remains the our US Refining capacity is maxed out, and has been for quite some time! That, with the US export of Crude Oil, and Refined Products are the major two reasons for our high fuel prices. No way around that being Absolute Fact.

I’m definitely not an expert on this subject…I‘m only responding based on my observations and what I’m hearing. A business will normally produce what’s in demand. What I’m hearing is that EV inventories are expanding at a higher rate than ICE vehicles. That tells me there’s a disconnect from what’s being produced vs what consumers are asking for. And as it relates to gas prices, why such a sudden turn from around $2.30 a gallon at the end of the Trump presidency to $3.89 a gallon in my geographical area today. My opinion is it‘s the result of the current president’s executive orders and policies. So perhaps this is the result of the US refining capacity being maxed out but it doesn’t explain the swiftness in the increase in gas prices in 2021.

 

[heckler56]

Back to some actual costs associated with BEV ownership. I last mentioned the possibility of a drive motor failure. Well I know of a couple units going down. One taken care of under warranty and the other outside the warranty. Final cost for replacement, $18,000. My “leased” vehicle has two drive motors and obviously a battery bank. So basically in the next 10 years there is a higher probability the vehicle “could” require an expense of $15k+ on a 10+ year old vehicle.

 

[heckler56]

About 4 months ago I began looking to replace my BEV before the end of lease. The dealer was pushing the replacement BEV (priced ~$13k higher than my deal just over 2 years ago net of the $7.5k credit). Trade value was estimated at about $43k. I decided against going forward replacing it. Two months later I stopped to look at new vehicles and the trade value sunk to $39K. My jaw dropped so I reached out to my old dealer in Wisconsin for a sanity check on prices. He said they are experiencing these used prices also and the units just sit because nobody wants a used BEV even when it is a year old. My leased vehicle is now below the “purchase” price (residual) on my lease. My local dealer has an identical vehicle to mine sitting on their lot this whole time (4 months). They started it at $46K. Last week they had it priced at $36K.

 

[euphoric1]

This EV thing was forced upon us by the current administration and the climate nuts. I'm not against EV's, but for Gods sake quit forcing this shit on us! It's getting real old!

Same thing happening here at out shop...the outdoor power equipment industry also in same direction as the automotive industry and there are places and instances where this stuff is ideal but very slow movers where we are at, yet they just keep forcing it on us as a dealer to inventory it and sell it and I will bet we are sitting with about half of the battery crap we started with in the spring and will be expected to order more if it again for next season. And you want something that will truly replace gas and have the same power? be prepared to PAY! Im sorry but if one wants to change the environment.... first of all we have to realize we cant change it! we don't own this planet it owns us and will do what it wants.

 

[euphoric1]

About 4 months ago I began looking to replace my BEV before the end of lease. The dealer was pushing the replacement BEV (priced ~$13k higher than my deal just over 2 years ago net of the $7.5k credit). Trade value was estimated at about $43k. I decided against going forward replacing it. Two months later I stopped to look at new vehicles and the trade value sunk to $39K. My jaw dropped so I reached out to my old dealer in Wisconsin for a sanity check on prices. He said they are experiencing these used prices also and the units just sit because nobody wants a used BEV even when it is a year old. My leased vehicle is now below the “purchase” price (residual) on my lease. My local dealer has an identical vehicle to mine sitting on their lot this whole time (4 months). They started it at $46K. Last week they had it priced at $36K.

If I heard correctly a EV's battery loses approximately 10% of its battery life each year, what's an EV going to be worth on trade or resale on let's say one that's 8 years old? and just like cell phones and everything else electronical or battery powered how obsolete will the technology be on an 8yr old EV? will they continue to write programs, will it take updates, how will one know the condition of the electric motors? or the condition of the battery. I would never buy a new one and there would just be way too many unknowns on a used one that I would ever even consider buying one of them either.

 

[old abe]

I’m definitely not an expert on this subject…I‘m only responding based on my observations and what I’m hearing. A business will normally produce what’s in demand. What I’m hearing is that EV inventories are expanding at a higher rate than ICE vehicles. That tells me there’s a disconnect from what’s being produced vs what consumers are asking for. And as it relates to gas prices, why such a sudden turn from around $2.30 a gallon at the end of the Trump presidency to $3.89 a gallon in my geographical area today. My opinion is it‘s the result of the current president’s executive orders and policies. So perhaps this is the result of the US refining capacity being maxed out but it doesn’t explain the swiftness in the increase in gas prices in 2021.

camphappyplace, as for the end of the Trump administration, you need to remember what all Covid did to our US, and the world economies. Covid absolutely killed the transportation industry, as commerce was drastically cut back. Thus the use of fuel, both gasoline, and diesel just dried up. This was world wide. There were 700 and some oil tankers idled at sea, mostly full and some empty. However now this year, the major cause of the increases on world market prices on both Crude, and Refined Products for this year, can be directly attributed to the Saudi's, and OPEC Plus production Cut Backs, and Roll Backs in production. You see they like High Prices in the game they play. My market Services advised me to make my fuel buys late last year, and again this July as they seen all this coming. Plus now, Brazil would like to become a large buyer of US produced diesel fuel. This as Russia can't satisfy their market needs. Who knows where fuel prices go now, but OPEC Plus is starting to be concerned with the higher prices on Crude, and Refined Products, $90, that they could be Cutting their own dicks off with a dull knife once again? Perhaps? And this as China's economy is tumbling?

 

[heckler56]

If I heard correctly a EV's battery loses approximately 10% of its battery life each year, what's an EV going to be worth on trade or resale on let's say one that's 8 years old? and just like cell phones and everything else electronical or battery powered how obsolete will the technology be on an 8yr old EV? will they continue to write programs, will it take updates, how will one know the condition of the electric motors? or the condition of the battery. I would never buy a new one and there would just be way too many unknowns on a used one that I would ever even consider buying one of them either.

As for my ride and my lithium conversion on my RV 3 years ago, I don’t see a battery degradation of 10%. Clearly allot of factors will make them plus or minus (heat/cold, charging above 80%, fast charging, etc).

Your other comments are spot on. I got that sales pitch as to why I should buy the latest and greatest new BEV, notgoingtohappen. The dealer in WI is a very straight shooter and he won’t let people buy one, only lease, as he has the same conclusions. He confided the mfr feels leasing is the path today.

 

[heckler56]

Let’s not forget who owns the vast majority of lithium mines in the world. OPEC has controlled oil and won’t China control all things battery? It’s like we are just marching right into a different brick wall only this time we will have our own mfr’s dependent for fundamental components to a monopoly.