Finally some real EV/Truck stats and...... WOW!!!

[old abe]

Let’s not forget who owns the vast majority of lithium mines in the world. OPEC has controlled oil and won’t China control all things battery? It’s like we are just marching right into a different brick wall only this time we will have our own mfr’s dependent for fundamental components to a monopoly.

Yeah, well, heckler56, I can remember when all the vehicle power hype was about the harnessing of Hydrogen power? What happened to all that Tech? I can also remember with that, that some thought the Oil, and Gas industries would control it? I do know that New Holland is developing a Hydrogen powered tractor, along with introducing a E powered tractor? There are many ways to power motive vehicles, and that are not being used, or even developed for use? Perhaps the old adage applies here, and that would be, Money talks, and BS walks! Seems so it is.

 

[gary_in_neenah]

I'm sorry but if one wants to change the environment.... first of all, we have to realize we can't change it! we don't own this planet it owns us and will do what it wants.

Safe for the workplace,
while saving the planet!

 

[whitedust]

Yeah, well, heckler56, I can remember when all the vehicle power hype was about the harnessing of Hydrogen power? What happened to all that Tech? I can also remember with that, that some thought the Oil, and Gas industries would control it? I do know that New Holland is developing a Hydrogen powered tractor, along with introducing a E powered tractor? There are many ways to power motive vehicles, and that are not being used, or even developed for use? Perhaps the old adage applies here, and that would be, Money talks, and BS walks! Seems so it is.

Hydrogen ain’t dead yet many auto OEMs are still pursuing it. I’m a fan of Hydrogen so hoping for the best.

 

[old abe]

Hydrogen ain’t dead yet many auto OEMs are still pursuing it. I’m a fan of Hydrogen so hoping for the best.

I'm all in that whitedust!

 

[camphappyplace]

camphappyplace, as for the end of the Trump administration, you need to remember what all Covid did to our US, and the world economies. Covid absolutely killed the transportation industry, as commerce was drastically cut back. Thus the use of fuel, both gasoline, and diesel just dried up. This was world wide. There were 700 and some oil tankers idled at sea, mostly full and some empty. However now this year, the major cause of the increases on world market prices on both Crude, and Refined Products for this year, can be directly attributed to the Saudi's, and OPEC Plus production Cut Backs, and Roll Backs in production. You see they like High Prices in the game they play. My market Services advised me to make my fuel buys late last year, and again this July as they seen all this coming. Plus now, Brazil would like to become a large buyer of US produced diesel fuel. This as Russia can't satisfy their market needs. Who knows where fuel prices go now, but OPEC Plus is starting to be concerned with the higher prices on Crude, and Refined Products, $90, that they could be Cutting their own dicks off with a dull knife once again? Perhaps? And this as China's economy is tumbling?

Abe - I totally get it that the pandemic caused a decrease in demand for fuel. That said, during the Trump presidency (pre-Covid) the US economy was rockin yet my recollection gas was dancing around $2.50. Why didn’t fuel prices skyrocket then? I assert that unlike Biden, Trump didn’t wage a war against the fossil fuel industry.

 

[old abe]

Abe - I totally get it that the pandemic caused a decrease in demand for fuel. That said, during the Trump presidency (pre-Covid) the US economy was rockin yet my recollection gas was dancing around $2.50. Why didn’t fuel prices skyrocket then? I assert that unlike Biden, Trump didn’t wage a war against the fossil fuel industry.

Yeah well, camphappyplace sorry for the delay as we're busy at harvest. So perhaps we can say that the stars all became aligned? LOL! Fact is the Easy, and Glory years of US Oil Fracking were 2009 to 2019. Fracking then became much more expensive, and difficult to get the production needed. This, and the fact that now the whole world had a huge glut of Crude Oil. That glut was so large that it ultimately sent the price of Crude into negative $$ value (minus $37) in early 2020. I bought all my diesel at $1.00 to $1.16 for 2020. However, that also had a very bad part to it. The stars now shall we say, became unaligned. US Oil Producers, small ones mostly, went belly up. OPEC Plus then decided this kind of price action would never happen again if they could prevent it. And they did. Domestic Oil Production Producers, Investors, and Financiers, got burned really bad. So they weren't interested in throwing more good money after bad as they no longer trust the Oil market. One way, or another, they had, had enough.

 

[pclark]

I

pclark, I absolutely understand where your at on this EV thing, I won't argue. However, if we want to be Well Heard on this, to whoever, Gov., or Co's/Corp's, we need to be spot on factual. This thing started well before Brandon became president. Yes, brandon has very aggressively overtly promoted it! But, the bottom line is the vehicle Co's/Corp's foreign, or domestic, will build what sells, and makes them $$$. They will not chase a dead horse in these days of age. Technology isn't always what we like when it arrives. But, with todays "Tech", there are many ways to improve the emissions on the internal combustion engines. So lets us push to do it! The Oil Industry doesn't like this one bit either, being due to less consumtion of what they produce! Remember this always, the FACT remains the our US Refining capacity is maxed out, and has been for quite some time! That, with the US export of Crude Oil, and Refined Products are the major two reasons for our high fuel prices. No way around that being Absolute Fact.

OA, The other issue is that we are nowhere close to being ready for this EV push. It will be years before the infrastructure is in place to handle it. So let's be smart and phase it in, not just say let's turn off Oil and suffer like we are right now. It's ridiculous for us to be paying per gallon what we are just because some bought and paid for President had the authority (Why is that, what gives him the right to deny oil production in the US?) to sign a bill shutting down the oil industry. One of the other issues is that EV's are heavily subsidized by taxpayer dollars so it's a double stab in the back to those of us that don't favor this not very well thought out EV push. I would think that hybrids are a better choice for all of us, Wake up Washington DC!, You work for us and we pay your salaries! I'll wait for Jonesin to say it!

 

[old abe]

OA, The other issue is that we are nowhere close to being ready for this EV push. It will be years before the infrastructure is in place to handle it. So let's be smart and phase it in, not just say let's turn off Oil and suffer like we are right now. It's ridiculous for us to be paying per gallon what we are just because some bought and paid for President had the authority (Why is that, what gives him the right to deny oil production in the US?) to sign a bill shutting down the oil industry. One of the other issues is that EV's are heavily subsidized by taxpayer dollars so it's a double stab in the back to those of us that don't favor this not very well thought out EV push. I would think that hybrids are a better choice for all of us, Wake up Washington DC!, You work for us and we pay your salaries! I'll wait for Jonesin to say it!

Again not to argue pclark. I'm more a Hybrid vehicle guy also? My snowmobile bud has a new F 150 Lariot Hyrbrid, and absolutely loves it. Me however I'm waiting for the Hybrid, Hybrids in our future. Now, US Oil production is at the all time high, and it's expected to climb more next year. Yes the EV's are being subsidized, no way around that being fact. But the Oil Industry is subsidized also, in a different way. Many tax exemptions. This has been going on for more than 100 years, and it continues today. We pay the price for that little scam also. Yeah, well, most people don't pay any attention anyway. Always more disappointments than satisfactions, eh.

 

[camphappyplace]

Yeah well, camphappyplace sorry for the delay as we're busy at harvest. So perhaps we can say that the stars all became aligned? LOL! Fact is the Easy, and Glory years of US Oil Fracking were 2009 to 2019. Fracking then became much more expensive, and difficult to get the production needed. This, and the fact that now the whole world had a huge glut of Crude Oil. That glut was so large that it ultimately sent the price of Crude into negative $$ value (minus $37) in early 2020. I bought all my diesel at $1.00 to $1.16 for 2020. However, that also had a very bad part to it. The stars now shall we say, became unaligned. US Oil Producers, small ones mostly, went belly up. OPEC Plus then decided this kind of price action would never happen again if they could prevent it. And they did. Domestic Oil Production Producers, Investors, and Financiers, got burned really bad. So they weren't interested in throwing more good money after bad as they no longer trust the Oil market. One way, or another, they had, had enough.

Old Abe - I understand the significance of market forces on the cost of crude. My point…the executive orders and policies of the current administration have been very detrimental to those active in the fossil fuel industry. In my opinion, these actions artificially caused a material and sudden change in the price at the pump (along with the indices you cite). Players in the industry saw the writing on the wall as they were now perceived as the enemy. This will continue unless we get leadership that is less hostile to the fossil fuel industry and develops a more practical EV strategy.

 

[old abe]

Old Abe - I understand the significance of market forces on the cost of crude. My point…the executive orders and policies of the current administration have been very detrimental to those active in the fossil fuel industry. In my opinion, these actions artificially caused a material and sudden change in the price at the pump (along with the indices you cite). Players in the industry saw the writing on the wall as they were now perceived as the enemy. This will continue unless we get leadership that is less hostile to the fossil fuel industry and develops a more practical EV strategy.

Not to argue camphappyplace, but no US politician, whether it be Brandon, Trump, whoever, or whatever, has control of Crude Oil, gasoline, or diesel market prices. Sadly that is the absolute truth. The Oil industry is in business to make money, and as much $$$ as possible. Capitalism, eh! They are in control, and have been for a very long time. And have no intentions of giving that up. Rockefeller, and Kaiser took care of that. So if what you say was true, why does OPEC Plus have such influence on the world oil market prices? No US President, or politician, has any control of them either, and won't have. With our refining capacity basically maxed out, pretty much nothing but putting the US export volume limits back on is all that could be done. As we had prior to 2014 on all US Crude, and Refined Products, is all that could be done to reduce our domestic US prices. And I will tell you, that is not going to happen! Period! You more than likely won't like what I have posted, but it's the True Facts, like it, or not. I've been in business, and burned through a whole lot of fuel for over 55 years. I'm a realist, and you can't grow, maintain, and stay in business very long relying on False Reality Wishful Thinking. It doesn't work now, and never will. Now Brandon is running for reelection, eh? You can bet your butt if he could lower the prices on Oil and Fuel, he would in a heartbeat.

 

[camphappyplace]

Old Abe - I respect your knowledge, years of experience purchasing fuel and understanding of the world markets. That said, I’m absolutely confident that if Trump had won the 2020 election, our country would have had a much more prudent EV strategy. In addition, the trend line for fuel prices would’ve been much different than the sudden spike we saw in 2021 as soon as Biden did his damage. Yes, I still believe he had much to do with it. I’m done beating this to death and will politely bow out of this topic. Cheers.

 

[dfattack]

Not to argue camphappyplace, but no US politician, whether it be Brandon, Trump, whoever, or whatever, has control of Crude Oil, gasoline, or diesel market prices. Sadly that is the absolute truth. The Oil industry is in business to make money, and as much $$$ as possible. Capitalism, eh! They are in control, and have been for a very long time. And have no intentions of giving that up. Rockefeller, and Kaiser took care of that. So if what you say was true, why does OPEC Plus have such influence on the world oil market prices? No US President, or politician, has any control of them either, and won't have. With our refining capacity basically maxed out, pretty much nothing but putting the US export volume limits back on is all that could be done. As we had prior to 2014 on all US Crude, and Refined Products, is all that could be done to reduce our domestic US prices. And I will tell you, that is not going to happen! Period! You more than likely won't like what I have posted, but it's the True Facts, like it, or not. I've been in business, and burned through a whole lot of fuel for over 55 years. I'm a realist, and you can't grow, maintain, and stay in business very long relying on False Reality Wishful Thinking. It doesn't work now, and never will. Now Brandon is running for reelection, eh? You can bet your butt if he could lower the prices on Oil and Fuel, he would in a heartbeat.

aah nope. I think he wants the chaos and high prices. Yes I said that.

 

[old abe]

aah nope. I think he wants the chaos and high prices. Yes I said that.

Perhaps? However, from the last of the Trump term, many things have happened. Ukraine is a big one! But to each his own , that's why the USA is so great. I understand what you feel, and why so, with no disrespect. I said this before, I'm a Realist, and don't dwell in a False Reality Fantasy Land.

 

[Hoosier]

aah nope. I think he wants the chaos and high prices. Yes I said that.

I agree 100% with that. They are clear in their views that climate change is the biggest bogeyman we face right now, more than Russia or China or even Trump.

The gas market didn't take the government mandates or subsidies to get off the ground. Sure they get accelerated depreciation but that's a timing issue not a true subsidy. And the govt didn't build a network of gas stations. Shoot, the gas tax we pay is often siphoned off for other things.

One more thing - who in their right mind would invest in gas production right now, with the threat of the govt ready to cancel leases or make their product economically unfeasible?

 

[whitedust]

I agree 100% with that. They are clear in their views that climate change is the biggest bogeyman we face right now, more than Russia or China or even Trump.

The gas market didn't take the government mandates or subsidies to get off the ground. Sure they get accelerated depreciation but that's a timing issue not a true subsidy. And the govt didn't build a network of gas stations. Shoot, the gas tax we pay is often siphoned off for other things.

One more thing - who in their right mind would invest in gas production right now, with the threat of the govt ready to cancel leases or make their product economically unfeasible?

Yep that is the democrats game plan and why we need to vote them out asap. Lol

 

[lofsfire]

It seems the EV aggressive timeline is a mistake ain’t no way ICE will be displaced anytime soon without vast improvement in the battery technology and cost of the production of EVs. Generally moving to EVs from ICE to EVs is not a simple and fast change and will indeed take a detailed plan over 10s of years if it happens at all in 20 years. Also the aggressive move to EV semi cargo trucks is still a dream no EV technology exits or charging infrastructure is currently available to accomplish this dream. Imo it’s a mistake to pursue unattainable EV timelines.

How long did it take to phase out leaded fuel? I remember it was like 96 when they officially stopped selling it. I think maybe around mid '70s is when they started to phase it out though... All they had to do was switch the blend that they were selling, not build entire infrastructure... And that was +/-20 years...

Hydrogen ain’t dead yet many auto OEMs are still pursuing it. I’m a fan of Hydrogen so hoping for the best.

"new hydrogen solution to come.”

Looks like RAM is going to have a hydrogen truck I believe I've seen a few commercials for Toyota as well...

Stellantis Announces Four Electrified Pickups For North America Including A Hydrogen-Powered Model | Carscoops

Ram will embrace electrification as the 1500 REV will be joined by three other eco-friendly pickups

www.carscoops.com

 

[garageguy]

95% of hydrogen at this time, is made from natural gas. Co2 is the by product. Hydrogen powered cars all sounds good but it takes energy to make and the making of it is not green. It's just takes the tailpipe emissions and shifts the co2 to the plant where the hydrogen was made.

We need to just burn the gas for 20 or 30 years till a breakthrough is found.

 

[euphoric1]

I just learned something regarding EV's that I did not know before and I apologize if this is old news as EV's are at the very bottom of lists of interests.... Did you know that the sticker price on an EV should on average be $50,000.00 higher than it actually is? if you didn't do you know why it isn't? well let me enlighten everyone who doesn't... its because our ever so wonderful administration gives $22.... BILLION, yes that's BILLION in TAX PAYERS FUNDED money to the EV manufacturers to help offset the production, costs and retail of EV's. Let me say it again...$22...BILLION of TAX PAYERS FUNDED MONEY per year to help offset EV costs. with all the tax breaks and credits that go into buying and owning an EV I would be curious what the EXACT cost of an EV is to the tax payers of this country. And I'm sorry but does this make any sense??? and now you have some manufacturers backing off on their goals for electrification because they too now see it isn't feasible... YA THINK?????

 

[lofsfire]

I just learned something regarding EV's that I did not know before and I apologize if this is old news as EV's are at the very bottom of lists of interests.... Did you know that the sticker price on an EV should on average be $50,000.00 higher than it actually is? if you didn't do you know why it isn't? well let me enlighten everyone who doesn't... its because our ever so wonderful administration gives $22.... BILLION, yes that's BILLION in TAX PAYERS FUNDED money to the EV manufacturers to help offset the production, costs and retail of EV's. Let me say it again...$22...BILLION of TAX PAYERS FUNDED MONEY per year to help offset EV costs. with all the tax breaks and credits that go into buying and owning an EV I would be curious what the EXACT cost of an EV is to the tax payers of this country. And I'm sorry but does this make any sense??? and now you have some manufacturers backing off on their goals for electrification because they too now see it isn't feasible... YA THINK?????

Yep and that is play right from China... The government backs the agenda they want to push at any cost until the people comply... With that said, I realize the government funds and pushes many ideas, including oil. But I think most agree the EV push is very forced without satisfactory provisions in place to make it work correctly. Because no matter how they want to spin it, EV's are not a true apples to apples comparison... They both have positives and negatives.

My neighbors kids come from NYC a few times a year and drive their Tesla. I think he had 3 or 4 stops to charge for over and hour each... That is not for me! Drive it to work as a beater, sure but a $100,000 car is not a beater for me. By the time it hits beater status the batteries will have to be replaced at a high cost.

95% of hydrogen at this time, is made from natural gas. Co2 is the by product. Hydrogen powered cars all sounds good but it takes energy to make and the making of it is not green. It's just takes the tailpipe emissions and shifts the co2 to the plant where the hydrogen was made.

We need to just burn the gas for 20 or 30 years till a breakthrough is found.

I know and agree. I just saw that article and though I'd share...

 

[snobuilder]

A guy that I know has a repair shop in Grand Forks next to a Tesla charging station, I asked him if he sees many cars using it and he told me usually one or two a day when he is at work but a while back there was a Tesla towing a small boat and he went over and talked to him. The guy was from Winnipeg and had purchased the boat in Texas, it was about a 1200 mile trip and the farthest he could go was 90 miles and it took 2 1/2 hours to charge every time. We are about 140 miles from Winnipeg so he still had to stop one more time before he got home. Not for me.

That sounds like it could be a sequel to the movie Planes ,Trains and Automobiles....LOL....
The Kansas leg..... "ain't no charging stations in Wichita....charging stations in Stubbville"