Harley may leave Milwaukee

[snobuilder]

.

 

[thunderstruck88]

DC says,"...Manufacturing in America is in severe retrenchment. America has a much reduced need for a high priced reliable workforce.

Think about this...statement. If this is true then America's middle class is going to shrink significantly. What the importers and exporters have NOT taken into consideration is the fact that if the work force gets smaller and/or wage rates fall relative to the middle classes, then EXACTLY WHO WILL HAVE THE WAGES TO BUY THESE EXPENSIVE PRODUCTS? In effect they will be pricing the consumer right out of the market. After all it is supply and DEMAND...and if you can't afford stuff...you won't be demanding it and this so called "service industry" will be unable to sustain itself. It is positively reticules to assume that we can do a wholesale replacement of industry that America developed, over to a mostly service economy.

Much of the work performed by that workforce is now automated, and rather than hiring workers to assemble and paint things, companies have robots to do the work. If the job is assembly line work, companies have it outsourced to China or build plants in Mexico. Unions now represent only 12% of the workforce, only 7.4% of non-government workers are union.

Ever take a gander at the working conditions and rates of pay these third world countries build industry under? Pollution is standard fair and none of the EPA requirements can be established because these countries don't give a rats butt if they pollute or not, and neither does the business man who is raking in the cash. Anything goes and in most...that's right...most cases, these plants pay slave wages, and pollute every bit as much as the turn of the century plants in the USA did. It is pure exploitation of the 3rd world country work force and paying off officials to allow the return of turn of the century issues that we thought WE would never see again. And guess what...there are NO unions in these countries to force the hand of business to do what they were required to do here 2 generations ago. So lay this on OUR unions if you want...but the fact is a weakened union is why the wage rate is going south and business is going over seas.

The laws of supply and demand dictate that the side with the supply must change price to meet demand, or the demand will go elsewhere. With 10% reported unemployment (18% estimated) the supply of workers far exceeds demand, and the cost of those workers must come down until supply and demand are in balance. If not, the demand will go elsewhere.

While America continues to work, we have become a service and consumer economy. Those industries have historically had low union membership, and large numbers of affordable workers have lowered the barrier to growth. Meanwhile our large manufacturing legacy companies continue to fail (GM) while their competitors with non union workforces in this country (Toyota) succeed.
GM, Ford and Chrysler are all bad business people? Toyota is the new kid on the block, with wages that had to closely match, but always a bit lower wage scale than the union force labor camps in the others. Toyota has NO legacy costs...NONE! Meanwhile they hire away some key engineers who have seen plans of what works and doesn't and wallah....they build cars and trucks that closely resemble what took decades to design and develop in Detroit.

Add to this fact that MUCH of Toyota and Honda was build and shipped here to begin with at margins of profit that stager the imagination. On top of that the countries that these transplant corporations came from laid out the red carpet and supported....yes their governments supported these businesses so that they could florish...and then eventually they come to the USA and begin building to avoid tarriffs...and if you were sick at either of these companies...you lost your job...where the other original companies had procedures in place brought about by UNIONW to prevent that. This is the "not so nice" side of the transplant companies. No union, don't yah know...means they could do whatever they wanted..and still do to this day.

Think about it...it is cheaper to build a TV in Taiwan, load it on a ship, sail it across the Pacific, unload it to a truck, take it to a rail yard, piggyback it to Chicago, unload it to a truck, and drive it to the WalMart distribution center near Eau Claire than to build it at the Zenith plant in Melrose Park and truck it to Eau Claire.

What's your point here? Cheap labor will usually suck these types of jobs and products away, and nobody disputes this...but every time this job gets gone here, there are workers who won't be taking home a paycheck. Now who is going to buy that product this guy was producing? Certainly not this guy nor none of his neighbors who don't have jobs or who are now flipping burgers to put food on the table. When labor is $5 per week on a third world country how are you supposed to compete with that? Answer is you can't and if you are to survive as a company against the likes of an ORIC XL vacuum that is made for about $7...you can't build them in the USA for anything close to that number...so you either are forced to go abroad yourself or go out of business. Meanwhile the guy who owns the vacuum company makes not just a decent profit...but an obscene profit that not only kills his competition, but it makes the guy wealthy beyond imagination.

There will always be another country to exploit the labor force from won't there?


You are correct, unions were instrumental in the building of our middle class in the 1950s and 60s. Unfortunately, they were instrumental in the destruction of that middle class in the 1990s and 2000s by failing to respond to the changing world economy, and now the goose that laid the golden eggs is dead.

Actually we would be doing just fine right now without importation of products. Every dime these "union members" made got spent right here in this country so that YOU could make YOUR paycheck and and buy YOUR stuff. Now that we can import, and that money no longer is in the "supply chain" who is going to buy this stuff...eventually...that answer will be --darn few, and only those who are amazingly rich...and the middle class will have passed away into the history books.

if you could afford to buy anything expensive be prepared to have it recalled over and over again I work in retail Non stop recalls and junk being brought back that don't work ALL MADE IN CHINA not HERE so we got what we so called wanted when we elected our government back in the day and NOW that don't protect us and I MEAN the citizens of the UNITED STATES They sold us all a cheap bill of goods and we are alll paying for it by being unemployed and will likely NEVER GET BACK THOSE GREAT PAYING JOBS WE NEED or our GREAT MANUFACTURING BASE I hope and pray we never go to war with China cause we'd be screwed big time cause everything is made over there and thats SAD :sad:

 

[frnash]

HEY...aren't bridges usually designed over water?

I have heard of a few that were designed over 'adult beverages', on the back of a napkin, do dat count?

You can't fool us fools with that won, Nash...there ain't no water in that state unless you start cutting down all the kacktusses....and even den, dats only enough to drink...

.....or is THIS that famous bridge to nowheres???

Nope, just siting the next and future Portage Lake Bridge, din'cha see that thread? Last I 'herd' there was still 'watter' in da Portage canal, no?

 

[ezra]

1st why would HD move to MN ?our gov loves to stick it to me I have 2 buds who have moved there manufacturing biz to SD and loving the extra money and they say more dedicated workers.2 with all the laid off const workers I have given a few laid off union sparky's a shot and 2 laid off union pipe fitters what a joke none made a full job slow slow slow .these guys really need a reality check on how the real world of non commercial work works and no thinking out of the box at all some people need unions because they would never make it in a self reliant work force

 

[Firecatguy]

help me out here .....are all you badazzed H-D owners a bunch of humorless dolts or just those 2 I heard chirpin' about the video,....LMAO at yur lack of humor.

trolling Eh......I think one the rules is about bashing..........

 

[ezra]

I have owned a HD and I thought it was verry funny.I no longer have a HD or will I prob ever own one again I like them but just kinda seams like they are every place you look now days with some lawyer or doctor with perfect nails and a shiny new black leather jacket on.and if I am in the convertible and I am stuck behind one I pull over and wait for a bit so I know I am getting old if I cant stand the annoying sound of a bike in fr of me for more than 5 min.I cant say anything about reliability my bikes can make it maybe 120 mi before some kind of tinkering but the newest one is a 1962 and the oldest is a 1957 BSA

 

[dcsnomo]

DC says,"...Manufacturing in America is in severe retrenchment. America has a much reduced need for a high priced reliable workforce.

Think about this...statement. If this is true then America's middle class is going to shrink significantly. What the importers and exporters have NOT taken into consideration is the fact that if the work force gets smaller and/or wage rates fall relative to the middle classes, then EXACTLY WHO WILL HAVE THE WAGES TO BUY THESE EXPENSIVE PRODUCTS? In effect they will be pricing the consumer right out of the market. After all it is supply and DEMAND...and if you can't afford stuff...you won't be demanding it and this so called "service industry" will be unable to sustain itself. It is positively reticules to assume that we can do a wholesale replacement of industry that America developed, over to a mostly service economy.

You are entirely correct, you error is that you have not accepted that it is already happening...America's middle class is declining rapidly right now. Read this http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/the-u.s.-middle-class-is-being-wiped-out-here's-the-stats-to-prove-it-520657.html?tickers=^DJI,^GSPC,SPY,MCD,WMT,XRT,DIA

And you are also correct that building an economy of consumer goods while wiping out the customers to buy them is suicide. Think about it, our economy is built on the middle class buying cheap cell phones and cars, the middle class is declining because of the loss of jobs due to outsourcing of production and then the middle class defaults on their mortgages and stops buying. Oh wait, isn't that the mess we are in now?

And here's where I will get in a real crapstorm...from the Great Depression to Reagan's election the government responded to these situations using an economic principle of creating jobs through infrastructure building, the CCC, WPA, interstate highway system, etc. Since the 80's the Federal government has used supply side economics to create jobs, that is, make the money cheap and businesses will invest. They did, and used the cheap money to build plants out of the country. If capital is close to free it costs me a lot less to build a new plant in Mexico.

 

[dcsnomo]

So lay this on OUR unions if you want...but the fact is a weakened union is why the wage rate is going south and business is going over seas.

No, the reason why wages are going south is simply supply and demand. There is cheaper labor available in China and Taiwan and Sri Lanka and Vietnam and... Are they being exploited, as you say? Yup, they are. Still doesn't change the fact that the labor is cheap. Why should I pay someone $20 per hour to stitch up blue jeans when I can get it done for 35 cents an hour and no unemployment, worker's comp, strikes, etc. Exploited? Yup. Cheap? Yup. Stock price based on worker conditions or profit?

 

[dcsnomo]

Moose-
The points in your multi-colored response are essentially correct. You and I differ in the perception of it. You say that the middle class might/will be reduced in the future. I say it IS being reduced right now, and the problems you predict will happen are happening right now and are part of the cause of the deep recession. People didn't just wake up one day and say "Hey Madge, let's default on our mortgage today!" They defaulted because they lost jobs as the middle class began its steep decline in the mid 2000s.

Added to that, the government's monetary policy of trickle down/supply side has not created jobs domestically, it has reduced them! BTW, this is not a political statement as this policy has continued through administrations of both parties. The monetary policy, when coupled with the open trade policy, has greatly reduced the cost of moving jobs out of the country.

The other place where we differ in perception is that this high paid worker concept is simply supply and demand. If the worker in the USA is $20 per hour +benefits (which to your point is socially "good" and creates a middle class) and the Sri Lanka worker is 35 cents an hour (to your point socially "bad" and exploited, polluted, and destroying America's middle class) America's industry will go with the Sri Lankan worker. Why? Cheap labor, lower costs, show WalMart how to do a price rollback, sell it by the container load. Middle class under pressure buys the cheap crap at WalMart to try to make ends meet, I can afford an occasional quality recall, stock price goes up, investors make money.

That was my point with the TVs...it is ridiculous to think that a TV can be built in Taiwan and shipped all the way to central WI cheaper than building it at the Zenith plant in Melrose Park and driving it 150 miles up the road.

You say this WILL happen. The recession says it HAS happened.

 

[saber1]

know that we know why ,how and when. Does anyone have the solution?

 

[snobuilder]

trolling Eh......I think one the rules is about bashing..........

Not really, just hard for me to believe that video came across as hard core bashing to the point where a person would not find the humor in it.........

But I guess spendin all that $$ on heritage and tradition can leave a person bitter

 

[dcsnomo]

know that we know why ,how and when. Does anyone have the solution?

Apparently not. And the bi*ch is, we cannot save our way out of our debt crisis. We have to grow our way out of it. So if we continue the "Bush" tax cuts without cutting government spendig, we deepen our debt because revenue is not increasing to offset the declining rates. Why? No growth industries for the middle class...all gone. No jobs. Tax cuts don't build auto plants in Flint, they build Polaris plants in Mexico. Also,one of the key issues with supply side economics is that the government must reduce its spending when it reduces its tax rate (Arthur Laffer) until the growth drives total revenue back up. Our government did the worst thing, they cut taxes and increased spending, and that guts the theory of supply side economics. Debt crisis #1.

The other option is good old Keynsian economics, which served us well from the Great Depression to Reagan. Obama is a Keynsian economist. Theory is, the government creates jobs by building infrastructure, highways, bridges, tanks, airplanes, etc. Well, we just spent $700 billion or so to prop up our financial system (to save, not create jobs), then another $700 billion to as "stimulus" to start building stuff and create jobs. Hasn't moved the needle yet. Debt crisis#2

These middle class jobs are gone. It is not a slow down, Elvis really has left the building. America is a consumer economy, and when we consume more (growth), it drives jobs overseas and profits in the USA.

Some people think that solving the energy crisis/oil problem will be that which brings us out of this. Not only will we end our reliance on foreign oil, but the massive re-tooling of the energy infrastructure in America (and the rest of the world) will create unique American jobs built on American ingenuity. That's why you hear politicians talking about spending money towards this, it is a new industry that America would own if we were first.

 

[anonomoose]

know that we know why ,how and when. Does anyone have the solution?

Well as DC says, we have met the enemy and it is us! This corporate greed is feeding on itself, but it is also like the fat lady who can't contain herself will eventually die. Why??? Because if you can't sell stuff to the very people you are importing products for, then even if you drop the prices significantly few will be able to buy it. For the life of me this "me now" corporate attitude I can't understand how they sell out their long term sustenance for short term huge profits. It is that simple.

We have to acknowledge places like Germany and France and other industrial nations, who KNOW that if they don't support the product made in THEIR country, then it will soon be lights out, and the unemployment line will build and the next thing that will HAVE to happen is that we will have to tax the crap out of everyone who IS working to support those who can not find a job. How stupid is that??

An answer???

Well, stop supporting companies that employ MONSTER greedy presidents. If you don't buy their products that can't do that can they?

Begin paying very close attention to where something is made. If it is made down around the corner that guy will put money back into YOUR backyard. If it is made in some third world country, it doesn't...and again you are supporting corporate greed....

We have become so used to buying what is cheaper, not always better but cheaper no matter WHERE it is made or more importantly where the money goes after it is made....not back into the area it was sold. This isn't that hard. If you have a company making widgets in your town, buy those widgets even if it cost a few cents more. Why?? Because that company employs workers who live in your neighborhood and they buy products YOU sell...services YOU sell, investing in your neighborhood comes back to you in more ways than one. Your neighbors pay water bills, fuel bills, pay school taxes, the list is very long....You lose all that when you buy something made outside your area.

Once we realize this and be more selective to what we make, what we grow, and what services we provide to one another, then we will turn the corner and watch corporate America fall into line. But as long as we don't, then we support the greed and we are victims of our own crimes.

Final question is...before we imported a bunch of stuff were we doing okay? Maybe it was more expensive, but it was American and it came right back to us. Now we import and BUY, BUY, BUY.....without a thought to what it is doing to us all.

I sure hope we learn this soon...or our grandkids will look back on us as being idiots and WORSE than the grand folks who robbed us in mining, destroyed our Forrest's, and turned the prairies into dust bowls....we will have ransacked this country to a point of near exhaustion.

 

[dcsnomo]

I sure hope we learn this soon...or our grandkids will look back on us as being idiots and WORSE than the grand folks who robbed us in mining, destroyed our Forrest's, and turned the prairies into dust bowls....we will have ransacked this country to a point of near exhaustion.

Well said, Moose!

 

[Firecatguy]

Not really, just hard for me to believe that video came across as hard core bashing to the point where a person would not find the humor in it.........

But I guess spendin all that $$ on heritage and tradition can leave a person bitter

I guess my dollars are better spent on my HD..Than that overweight POS yamaha you got

 

[eagle1]

you guys have short memories. You can thank the Republicans just as much for NAFTA. Granted Clinton signed it but Bush was responsible for getting the ball rolling and pushing for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement
I love how much power you guys give these unions, you make it sound like their running the company.

Interesting.... looks like more Republicans voted for it than Democrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/1993/roll575.xml

 

[arcticman]

How many non-union workers ar guarantee monthly pension of thousands of dollars. My union make sure that I am covered when I retire.I see the rest of you as your the one that's greeting meet at Walmart (welcome to walmart have nice day) oh I will to bad your still working.

 

[bryan t]

Comments like the above are why people have no sympathy for union workers who go on strike.
It shows the education level of most union workers!!

BTW..Harley will not be moving to minnesota... I am not sure who started the story about harley leaving milwaukee...the plants they have talked about closing were Tomahawk, and Menominee Falls..NOT MILWAUKEE.

 

[cmillertime]

Just look at how mercury got the state to fork over the taxpayers moola, HD isnt stupid if they got a free ride why not us. Same goes for all those who are still unemployed as of 2+ years ago. The gov keeps extending those unemployment checks so why would they get a job when they can sit at home and collect their 350/week, plus most are working on the side for cash. They are banking in the doe and no way could they make that in a single 40 hour week at 10-15 bucks an hour. Thats 450-600 a week take home. It wont stop until the gov stops sending those checks out. 1 yr on unemployment should be tops no matter what.

 

[bryan t]

I guess my dollars are better spent on my HD..Than that overweight POS yamaha you got

Somebody(firecat guy) is definately bitter....lol...but he rides arctic cat and Harley's so I'm sure he's knows how to wrench on stuf...lol