NEED HELP!! Survey from John Dee Sledders!

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momoney2123

New member
whitedust said:
We don't know how you have not burned down either with doos 2s from 2000 on? We were introduced to Mr.Doo 800 bad crank seals & flaking rings in 2002 & 2003 800 bone stock sleds at about 3,900 miles. Both engines were junk but were very well maintained & replaced after meltdowns for big bucks. We both bought Yamaha 4s do oil & filter gas & go sled no engine probs what so ever. Only thing I can think is you sell the doo sleds before the 4,000 mile mark so don't own when they melt. I know how it feels when you read about engine problems that others have you think "What that doesn't happen to me"? Until it does then you go "crap I should have paid more attention to those threads".lol Been there done that.lol No worries with Yamaha 4s engines & good luck with your doos maybe it won't happen to you.:)
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No ive owned them well over 4000 miles, usually sell them before 7000. Altho I still have an 03 rev 440 with a 600 Ho with well over 10K miles, i dont even know what its at to be honest. We had ring issues with the 03 revs, and simply put wiseco pistons and rings in them before there was ever an issue. Never took them to meltdown point or ever even heard of that and we have a lot of big ties with ski-doo. Dad just traded his 11 800 etec with 8000 miles for a 14. No issues. I duno.....
 
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whitedust

Well-known member
momoney2123 said:
No ive owned them well over 4000 miles, usually sell them before 7000. Altho I still have an 03 rev 440 with a 600 Ho with well over 10K miles, i dont even know what its at to be honest. We had ring issues with the 03 revs, and simply put wiseco pistons and rings in them before there was ever an issue. Never took them to meltdown point or ever even heard of that and we have a lot of big ties with ski-doo. Dad just traded his 11 800 etec with 8000 miles for a 14. No issues. I duno.....
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I don't want to get off Kip's topic but you have had reasonable doo 2s luck although installing wiseco pistons and rings in an doo engine to make it right not my opinion of a good engine. I get the feeling you have not owned a Yamaha 4s so don't really have hands on experience with both engine brands to really know how much better yamaha 4s engines are. Yes I get it you like very light sleds with 2s engines so doo fits you best. I ride alone a lot so for me I have to get home without help & doo 2s let me down too often & found Yamaha 4s as the answer for me. Doo 2s meltdowns have been the case for us run great until they don't. I also have a 2010 150 etec outboard, ok engine, but does throw wierd faults from time to time so I'm like here we go again you dummy for buying a 2s again. lol:) I guess I never learn to a point.:)
 
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lenny

Guest
anonomoose said:
Burn downs can happen for a variety of reasons, including bad fuel, cracked boots, plugged jet, etc. It happens because the nature of this motor requires the right fuel with the right oil getting to all parts of the friction points over the life of the motor. When any of these, or combinations occur, the motor is toast. This means a guy on the trip is out of a sled, towing out of the woods, for the most part a blown day is something we all avoid....and factually, if you have been thru this problem at least once, then the worst sled that is RUNNING is better than the super duty gee whizzer that has become a boat anchor.

Yamaha got out of the 2 stroke business because it won't meet Federal regulations which is an effort to clean up emissions in EVERYTHING that consumes fuel.
While I commend Yamaha for building the MT Light model, it was their first attempt at it and if they went at it again, and put that machine on a serious diet, dropping say 125....the characteristics of this sled would be way different and would be a viable candidate for many on this forum. I believe it can be done....and history is just that....history, what it was and not necessarily where we are going.
Build it and they will beat a path to your doorstep. But build it so that it hits the center of the target and not off in the edge ring.
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I have no idea what you are talking about. Yamaha has been building Mtn sleds as long as any one has. The first year of the 4 stroke they had long tracks 15? before that they had the myn max, mtn viper and mtn srx. All the manufactures evolve somewhat together in track length

They are still producing Mtn sleds at 162" tracks just like everybody else and they do not offer it in the 500cc 80 hp like the mtn phazer. The Mtn Phazer is a crossover, just because it has the "Mtn" in the name, it does not trump the other part of the name, "lite". The Mtn Lite was not Yamaha's shot at Mtn sleds as they have always been in that market. They just don't sell like the other 3 because of the weight but they are still a quality machine, just not as easily maneuverable. There is only so much tech available to produce a light weight 4s and manufactures are building them but when a 2s is easier to ride and the rider values that flickibility they will buy 2s.
 
indy_500

indy_500

Well-known member
kip said:
Indy 500,

This is no dig but the Viper is selling for under 12 grand and a hundred bucks over 12 grand on the XTX SE model. Just want people to know the true price of the Viper. For the material of the unit it's pretty good price compared to the competition. Thanks for all the input, it's great!!
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I thought msrp on them bad boys were around 15?
 
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Hoosier

Well-known member
I'd love to see a 2 stroke Yamaha again, even if it's in Cat clothes. I grew up liking Yamahas, and I always wanted to buy a new one, and then they quit making them right when I got out of college (really wanted an SRX). Since then I bought an edge (trailing arm - handled like a truck) and then a Fusion (blew up due to failing carb boot), so I'm not exactly stuck on Poo's. Now I like the handling of the Fusion, and I'm not sure if I'd get that on one of the Yami's.

I'm thinking that new Viper might be the ticket for me in a couple of years when I have more time to ride and can justify upgrading from the Fusion.

Back to the original question of would you sacrifice a few things for light weight cross-over or mountain sleds, this makes me think Yamaha is either looking to (1) do more products with Arctic Cat or (2) shorten the cycle it takes to bring a product to market. Either way might sacrifice a little in the traditional Yamaha strengths of reliable, fit and finish, etc. but might help to bring the price down a little or help keep up with the Poos/Doos/Kittys in terms of the latest and greatest each year. If I was Yamaha, I wouldn't throw out what they are known for. They still make bullet-proof 2 stroke outboards, don't they? If so, why not a sled?

I saw Snowtech was real excited about the new Doo 900 - supposedly the first lightweight 4 stroke with decent power and great mileage - why can't Yamaha "doo" something like that? 90/100 HP, 20 MPGs?
 
T

Team Elkhorn

Guest
snobuilder said:
I often wonder....can an engine be TOO good for a sleds lifespan?
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I've been saying this for years.
While I have a manufacturer's ear. Sleds are stupid expensive now. And since you can put triple the miles on the new 4 strokes, how about selling a rolling chassis minus the motor. We could drop our tried and true motor in and ride a new sled for half the price. The trucking industry has been doing this since forever.
 
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hoffmansledder

New member
I just hope the huge price tags on these sleds come down some. I understand R & D is expensive but how much more is put into sleds today than 10 yrs ago. In 2001 I pre-seasoned a ZR 600 Limited edition with clicker shocks and got it for $6300. Now something similar to that is closer to $8300. Kind of off topic I know so I still say lighter is better.
 
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Hoosier

Well-known member
hoffmansledder said:
I just hope the huge price tags on these sleds come down some. I understand R & D is expensive but how much more is put into sleds today than 10 yrs ago. In 2001 I pre-seasoned a ZR 600 Limited edition with clicker shocks and got it for $6300. Now something similar to that is closer to $8300. Kind of off topic I know so I still say lighter is better.
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If that's all they've gone up, that's not too bad. 30% in 12 years. I'm crying when I read a snowtech review and it ends with - this sled is ONLY $13,500.

Question is - if they build a $6,000 sled (real price, not MSRP), will people buy it? The Polaris Indy 600 (or the Shifts they made before that) isn't too far off and they sell quite a few of those. I doubt the margins are as good on those though. I think Doo has something with a 600 in that range also. Apparently the Poo 600 engine is back to being solid also if the oil pump is turned up and the fuel filter is replaced on time). I don't need the latest and greatest suspension, shocks, gauges, etc. As long as the shocks are rebuildable, and it has a tach and a gauge on the tank, I think I'm ok.
 
eagle1

eagle1

Well-known member
scott_b said:
It isn't just weight, it is balance. In an ideal world I would love a light weight 144' 145+ hp 4 stroke sled but it needs to be durable and balanced. I am really interested in riding a Viper XTX...
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spot on!
the Nytro was a good start but they never really made major improvements in subsequent years.

Get rid of radiators on the front run tunnel heat exchangers. They also need to design body with floation in mind, where the Nytro fails.

2 stroke would be fine but it better run a solid 2 or 3 years while your making payements. lol
Light is not cheap but if they do it right the masses wil come.

They also (all mfg'rs) need to have these sleds ready before they're released. Seem all sleds are rushed to market now days. so many small things you got fix or make work yourself.
 
C

coldbear

New member
esra...LMAO on the loud red headed ride around the neighborhood. Wife always has the last say, or they think they have. Pin it!
 
L

lenny

Guest
mspease said:
Didn't you have a Mtn Lite Lenny or what Yamaha off trail sled was that you had? Did you like it?
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I did have one and beat the snot out if it for 3 years straight with 6000 miles of backwoods riding, never once was I stranded. As far as the performance it was decent. Keep in mind it's 80 hp. The Mtn lite is not for aggressive riding but where this sled would shine is logging roads, exploring, carving. It was well balanced side to side. I could carve that sled so easy. I let Mr Freeze ride it once and he tipped over first turn. I really loved how easy you could turn the sled over. As I progressed in my abilities I came to learn I needed a more powerful sled because track speed can pull you through some hairy ordeals where the MTn lite would just trench in like a ditch witch. If you didn't have momentum you were finished in the deep freshies. Flat terrain it was actually a good floater and could go many places but not good at all for climbing or tight slow turning off camber or down hill.

The Mtn lite was a good quality sled that was ultra reliable but it had a few design flaws that were hard to deal with. My pants would freeze to the tunnel all the time even with the little panels they sold to eliminate water dripping down the tunnel. The foot boards were crap and totally iced up and I carried a rubber mallet, would have to stop and bust off all the ice. I cut the boards of and installed "better boards".

There is an inherent problem with 4 stroke motors concerning weight. They are a large mass of weight up front that the rider has to man handle to get the sled to go where he want's it to go. It wears you out in a few hrs and you are than frustrated and discouraged getting careless. The Mtn lite has it's place for a somewhat broad range of riders but for aggressive climbing and technical riding, it's not the ticket nor was it intended to be. It was good on fuel, electric start and reverse, comfortable forward rider position and easy transition to standup. It would be great for kids to learn to ride backwoods. The motor does really rip for 80 hp, sound like poop at idle but wind it up and it screams.
 

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Deleted member 10829

Guest
Excellent, honest review Lenny! Very detailed as well.

I wish I could add something more to this but not much of an off trail rider, yet. I must say I may be eating crow as I was convinced Yamaha was not long for this industry when they didn't invest in their own new chassis and jumped into bed with Cat. But by the sounds of Yamaha's question to Kip, I could be way wrong. It happens too often! ;)
 
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polarisrider1

New member
Kip, I think Yamaha should stick to the 4 strokers and trail sleds. They are ahead of the game in that dept. The government with the EPA rules and the land use issues for "off trail" is going to grow making it tougher for the 2 stroke crowd. Off trail is getting more limited. eventually non exsistent. I see more of the "Yellowstone Park" riding with 4 strokers and trail riding only in Michigan in the future. Yamaha makes good dependable sleds. Weight is an issue for off trail, but can't see it as big issue as a luxury touring type trail sled. As the market ages I see more and more of us wanting the clean burning, reliable gas and go type sleds. Yamaha is a long term thinking type company. Poo and Doo are selling sleds to Russians and the eastern block like they are going out of style taking the "let's make all we can, as fast as we can" approach until they form some kind of EPA. I see Yamaha and Cat as a win-win situation. One thing for sure sled prices need to come down.
 
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kip

Well-known member
Great feedback guys and the honesty is even better. Please keep it coming if you can. I understand there is only so much one can say on the topic but this is want I love about snowmobilers! They have great passion and that's why the sport is strong today and will remain that way. Thanks for the help to all!
 
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dwz

Active member
Viper frame, Push turbo, pick your track length. Sorry, to me it is easy ,just do it Yamaha!
 
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whitedust

Well-known member
mspease said:
Excellent, honest review Lenny! Very detailed as well.

I wish I could add something more to this but not much of an off trail rider, yet. I must say I may be eating crow as I was convinced Yamaha was not long for this industry when they didn't invest in their own new chassis and jumped into bed with Cat. But by the sounds of Yamaha's question to Kip, I could be way wrong. It happens too often! ;)
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Yep if Yamaha or Polaris wanted to get out they would just say done snowmobiles PITA market for both. I have been involved in many OEM agreements & my thinking is AC passion is rubbing off on Yamaha opening their eyes a bit. It is all about making money & looks like the Viper did that for both companies so now OEMS get closer or further apart & for now looks like they will be closer the beautiful new girlfriend with big boobs you can't get enough of approach. lol Now Polaris is sitting there thinking no 4s.... I wonder if Yamaha would be interested very logical for them too.....you bet! Very possible & that is how OEM agreements grow when you become the standard no internal mfg can beat. Polairs & 4s engines from Yamaha would not surprise me at all to jump start Poo 4s program.:)
 
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