I'll stand by my previous post. Forget about Yami buying CAT. Deere went through this several years ago. Core people will not let it happen. They will control the vote. And if that is what will bring Yami something new, then the train has left the station. Many Yami loyals could not stand the fact of the Vector being built by CAT. I will agree with WD and new engine idea. Many ways to save weight by doing that. One that does not need RPM reduction. I don't want to see another Mfr leave the bus. We need the drive of competition.
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New Apex was sighted!!!
- Thread starter Attak man
- Start date
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lenny
Guest
I'm encouraged to see some new skid improvements, to me that's the biggest disadvantage for Yamaha.
I'll stand by my previous post. Forget about Yami buying CAT. Deere went through this several years ago. Core people will not let it happen. They will control the vote. And if that is what will bring Yami something new, then the train has left the station. Many Yami loyals could not stand the fact of the Vector being built by CAT. I will agree with WD and new engine idea. Many ways to save weight by doing that. One that does not need RPM reduction. I don't want to see another Mfr leave the bus. We need the drive of competition.
Good luck with those thoughts & all happens in board room.The point we all have to consider in 3rd of the OEM Agreement is where does the Viper go in the near & distant future?? Does a long term OEM agreement get signed?...Does AC snowmo division fly the Yamaha USA mfg flag owned by Yamaha?.... Does Yamaha take all product lines back to Japan along with AR&D? We are more then 1/2 way thru this agreement so has to evolve to something else just the way theses relationships work.
........Core people will not let it happen. They will control the vote.
Either you're naive or you really don't understand how hostile takeovers work.......they (Yamaha. assuming they actually are so inclined) will make the type of offer it would be ludicrous for investors to turn down......as much loyalty as you attribute to the "Cat core" it's still a publicly traded company and owned by the shareholders and not the workers.....if there's enough financial incentive, anything is possible. I'm not saying it WILL happen, merely that IF Yamaha would choose to pursue this option people will tend to vote with their wallets first and their loyalty somewhat later........
Either you're naive or you really don't understand how hostile takeovers work.......they (Yamaha. assuming they actually are so inclined) will make the type of offer it would be ludicrous for investors to turn down......as much loyalty as you attribute to the "Cat core" it's still a publicly traded company and owned by the shareholders and not the workers.....if there's enough financial incentive, anything is possible. I'm not saying it WILL happen, merely that IF Yamaha would choose to pursue this option people will tend to vote with their wallets first and their loyalty somewhat later........
In this case I don't think it would be hostile at all...really is a no brainer.... hmmmm continued to be owned by AC or by a much larger powerhouse corporation?...lol...where do I sign?...no place for emotion in these deals all about shareholder profitability. Like you said new Pres has the look and feel of an investment banker & that was by design imo to the current biz needs of AC. Yamaha buys AC is a win/win for both corps & really could happen.
You have your thoughts, and I mine. Cat is the size of Co. that has many ways to protect them selves from both hostile, and or buy out. They are to committed, as seen many times. You have to remember who needs who most? CAT would have gone on without the Yami deal just fine. There were other ways to get what they wanted. Yami needed the deal much more. As in the CAT chassis. And yes it is not over with yet. Hope is that Yami will get going on by them selves with "new" sleds, and engines. As for the deal to continue, Yami would have to build engines to Cats needs. As SUZI did for many years, and with much success.
snobuilder
Well-known member
Lol.....still tweaking the poo owners...?I guess I knew this would light you up & other Poo fans as well but the roots to Axys are in Rush 1 & 2 axys went to composite parts so yes different parts if that means new but design very simular to Rush 1 & 2. Lots of mags say Axys is getting the Rush right but took a few years...so new not so much imo. I have not seen any OEM clean sheet new chassis design since rev XP & Rush then tweak tweak tweak with those. Yamaha did a terrible job marketing 2011 Apex new platform with eps. Everything changed much like the axys but Yamaha did not explain nuts & bolts to the world they just invited mags to test ride & instead of explaning improvements to the world they asked..... well what do you think feel lighter or what? ...lol... We have a game changer 1st to market with eps....FLOP!! Took me a year to find out the redesign of deltabox 2 chassis....& that is on Yamaha marketing. Poo did a very good job marketing the axys & I give them credit where credit is due but the axys design is just not new to me just a evolvement of the Rush imo just like all the oems.
Comparing the changes from 2010 to 2011 Apex to the changes from the 2014 Rush to the 2015 Rush AXYS is at best laughable. ..sorry...
Don't get me wrong....EPS and extra seat foam is great....I guess the EXUP improved hp too? .....but take a closer look at the AXYS from end to end....way more engineering than glued frame joints.....Lol
Btw....measure your footwell to spindle distance on your newer Apex...it will tell you the distance on the 2003 RX-1...LOL
Deltabox II was introduced in 2006 and successfully moved the handlebars 2" forward!
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G
Guest
Yes, take a look at the AXYS from end to end. You will notice that the distance between the ski spindles and where the track meets the snow is greater than any Rush. To achieve a better ride and get rid of ski lift all they have really done is move the rear suspension back a little bit. Not rocket science but quite effective.
You have your thoughts, and I mine. Cat is the size of Co. that has many ways to protect them selves from both hostile, and or buy out. They are to committed, as seen many times. You have to remember who needs who most? CAT would have gone on without the Yami deal just fine. There were other ways to get what they wanted. Yami needed the deal much more. As in the CAT chassis. And yes it is not over with yet. Hope is that Yami will get going on by them selves with "new" sleds, and engines. As for the deal to continue, Yami would have to build engines to Cats needs. As SUZI did for many years, and with much success.
Yep often thought of who needed who more & thought Cat needed engines then Yam would not have Viper without Cat so on & on & still not sure....lol...If Yamaha pulls away from Cat it will hurt Cat a whole lot more than Yamaha so started looking at it that way. If Yamaha goes forward without Cat.... Cat will have huge $$ void & empty mfg facility not a good thing in todays biz environment. I think Yamaha would be happy to build Cat engines if it comes to that just needs to be profitable & done deal. As said before more than 1/2 way thru current agreement so both Cat & AC have to consider where they go from here so stay tuned in next 2 years as will get very interesting. I do think Cat snomo division would be in great shape if bought by Yamaha & as far as Cat employee emotion just no place in the deal for that.
Lol.....still tweaking the poo owners...?
Comparing the changes from 2010 to 2011 Apex to the changes from the 2014 Rush to the 2015 Rush AXYS is at best laughable. ..sorry...
Don't get me wrong....EPS and extra seat foam is great....I guess the EXUP improved hp too? .....but take a closer look at the AXYS from end to end....way more engineering than glued frame joints.....Lol
Btw....measure your footwell to spindle distance on your newer Apex...it will tell you the distance on the 2003 RX-1...LOL
Deltabox II was introduced in 2006 and successfully moved the handlebars 2" forward!
Actually you are proving my point posted somewhere herein that some think no new platforms after RX1 ,Rev1 & Rush 1 as said I don't agree with that but Grub's response is on point with that discussion. It all depends on how you perceive design improvements as all new concept or just an improvement of a current design. I see both sides & of course marketing has a lot to do with presentation to the market & calling things what they want. But once you start comparing design measurements the roots are there & can be called improvements of basic design or marketing can call it all new bend metal dimensions a bit & smooth out plastic lines.
Go ahead and measure the spindles on an Apex and Rx1, you'll find they are different. Along with the Deltabox, the suspension, the seat, the engine. There isn't much that wasn't changed between the two.
You can dislike Yamaha all you want but you can't say they haven't been a leader in development. Some good, some bad but pretty good considering the economy here and in Japan. Weather etc.
They started the whole 4 stroke thing which every other manufacturer figured out EXEPT Poo who's attempt was a disaster - remember the FST? A sled truly made by farmers for farmers! LOL
They did the 3cylinder RS line also which after the RX1, then the Apex line came out, then the 3cylinder went into the Apex chassis. All big programs because they went to ful injection which was basically new engines..
Then the Phazer came which was another new concept in sled design, and after that the Nytro.
I agree the Phazer and Nytro were poor designs but they went there and tried, a lot like Poo with the Fusion. Another great Polaris design. So the AXYS didn't just show up, Poo had a couple failures to get there.
That's why I think Yamaha joined up with Cat on the Viper. They went down the path with the Phazer and Nytro and it turns out it was a bad decision and left them with nothing different in the works so it bought them time to change direction. And through this they still continued to upgrade the Vector/Apex line.
You can dislike Yamaha all you want but you can't say they haven't been a leader in development. Some good, some bad but pretty good considering the economy here and in Japan. Weather etc.
They started the whole 4 stroke thing which every other manufacturer figured out EXEPT Poo who's attempt was a disaster - remember the FST? A sled truly made by farmers for farmers! LOL
They did the 3cylinder RS line also which after the RX1, then the Apex line came out, then the 3cylinder went into the Apex chassis. All big programs because they went to ful injection which was basically new engines..
Then the Phazer came which was another new concept in sled design, and after that the Nytro.
I agree the Phazer and Nytro were poor designs but they went there and tried, a lot like Poo with the Fusion. Another great Polaris design. So the AXYS didn't just show up, Poo had a couple failures to get there.
That's why I think Yamaha joined up with Cat on the Viper. They went down the path with the Phazer and Nytro and it turns out it was a bad decision and left them with nothing different in the works so it bought them time to change direction. And through this they still continued to upgrade the Vector/Apex line.
snobuilder
Well-known member
Yes, take a look at the AXYS from end to end. You will notice that the distance between the ski spindles and where the track meets the snow is greater than any Rush. To achieve a better ride and get rid of ski lift all they have really done is move the rear suspension back a little bit. Not rocket science but quite effective.
The entire front chassis casting is new and now cradles the engine with integral mounts. It also postions the engine to where a longer length of the pipe coming off the header can be utilized for better performance. The engine also sits lower.
The side and top panels can now be removed in a minute.
The rear skid is bolted into an entirely new tunnel at about 5" toward the back .
The rear skid linkage is totally revamped with new rear swing arm and a new 5" longer front arm.
I am sure there about 10 more items to add here
Then there is the 800HO engine...I'll let you search and read those 10 paragraphs on your own....LOL
G
G
Guest
Little things here and there. Starting with the mess that was the Fusion it has taken them a solid decade to properly react to what the other 3 mfgs put out in 2003. In 2003 AC had the Firecat, Yami had the RX1 and Doo came with the first Rev. Pol rested on the 4 million XCSP's they had so much success with. 3.5 million of which are still out on the trails. But now they finally have something decent again. Good for all of us.
snobuilder
Well-known member
Little things here and there.
LOL.
The transformation from 2014 to 2015 Rush is on par with the 2003 Yam 2stroke chassis to Rx-1 and the REV olution from Ski-Doo.
Cat put hot boxes in ther 700 fcats and impressed everyone but NFL....you can run ANY sled on the edge but not for long.
The DB-I and DB-II BOTH housed the Monoshock rear susp. 11 model years ago.
Only real geometric diff from DB-I to DB-II was the steering post moving 2" forward.
since then ...taller seat foam,,,,,EPS and Sportbike EXUP is all that Yamaha has done in 12 model years other than the Cat engine supply contract.
Thank gawd they introed a new rear skid to keep what is left of their faithful's attention somewhat interested.
On the positive side for Yamaha is there flawless engines that make snowmachining a spiritual experience....LOL....NO OTHER manny comes close!
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G
Guest
Yammi's strong suit has always been the motor. Once I rode the first RX1 50 miles I was addicted. Went on to own 5 of them. Not just the bulletproof dependability but the sound of that thing just set me off. However all good things must come to an end. Yammi's weak suit has always been weight. Since they went exclusively 4 strokers anyway. You can mask it with power steering but it is still there. Now they are coming with a replacement for the mono and it is a little lighter but still not enough. Yammis are heavy period. It is much more difficult to build decent suspensions for a sled weighing as much as the Yammis do. And you will still have inertial forces that will not allow a substantially heavier sled to keep up with a lighter sled if it gets really rough. I understand that there is a very large segment of Yammi riders that are strictly smooth trail cruisers that do not care about aggressive riding in the least. And that is fine - the Yammis will work just fine for them. However there are also a lot of folks that still like to feel that they are actually 'riding' a sled and not simply sitting on a moving lawn chair. To each his own. If I choose to buy a new sled it will be a light, flickable sled. It may be green or yellow or red but it will not weigh over 475 lbs. So it won't be blue. I am old enough I may even get a 600. Then I won't have to read about half the threads on here.
snobuilder
Well-known member
The extra 80-100 #s over the skis a 4 stroke adds is a tough nut to eat but I think EPS is the right way to go...I assume you have ridden one?...if not you should.
I agree on the smooth trail sector rider being OK with the weight but I also think most folks ...on light sleds or heavy....want a smooth trail although alot won't admit to it.
I strayed from the Yam 4strokes which I still enjoy...and went to a light weight red one...it keeps my attention from the Yammies most days.
I agree on the smooth trail sector rider being OK with the weight but I also think most folks ...on light sleds or heavy....want a smooth trail although alot won't admit to it.
I strayed from the Yam 4strokes which I still enjoy...and went to a light weight red one...it keeps my attention from the Yammies most days.
Yammi's strong suit has always been the motor......... Yammi's weak suit has always been weight. Since they went exclusively 4 strokers anyway.
Heck, LONG before that.....I give you the Vmax 4.........'nuff said.........
snobuilder
Well-known member
there 3 cylinder competition wasn't exactly lightweight. ..lolHeck, LONG before that.....I give you the Vmax 4.........'nuff said.........