Mike, with all due respect, you're missing my point entirely. Personally, the ban doesn't affect me one way or the other. I'm not arguing in favor of the practice of smoking. I'm arguing in favor of the business owners being able to decide for themselves whether they choose to allow a legal practice to take place on their premises, and assume the risks of their actions. If they were free to be able to choose to allow it, then non-smokers would be free to not patronize it, and if they were free to choose not to allow it, then smokers would be free to not patronize it. It's really very simple. Freedom to choose. That's it.
Smoking Ban?? Update??
- Thread starter bryan t
- Start date
Mike, with all due respect, you're missing my point entirely. Personally, the ban doesn't affect me one way or the other. I'm not arguing in favor of the practice of smoking. I'm arguing in favor of the business owners being able to decide for themselves whether they choose to allow a legal practice to take place on their premises, and assume the risks of their actions. If they were free to be able to choose to allow it, then non-smokers would be free to not patronize it, and if they were free to choose not to allow it, then smokers would be free to not patronize it. It's really very simple. Freedom to choose. That's it.
Firecatguy
New member
I dont smoke anymore so take this as you will........
Who ever said smoking was bad for you???same people that say the environment is messed up too???the same people that said a glass of wine is bad?or wait then they said a glass of wine is good for you...wait!!!! one more...The poor egg was bad for you now i believe they say its good for you???Hmmmmmm Freedom to choose is the American way!!!!!
this issue can go on and on and on...but remember this the whole smoking ban started in California....and they now say you need to not smoke in your car....or rental property{someones home}...so its coming!!!!maybe next having a drink in your home might offend your neighbor who is a recovering drunk......
Who ever said smoking was bad for you???same people that say the environment is messed up too???the same people that said a glass of wine is bad?or wait then they said a glass of wine is good for you...wait!!!! one more...The poor egg was bad for you now i believe they say its good for you???Hmmmmmm Freedom to choose is the American way!!!!!
this issue can go on and on and on...but remember this the whole smoking ban started in California....and they now say you need to not smoke in your car....or rental property{someones home}...so its coming!!!!maybe next having a drink in your home might offend your neighbor who is a recovering drunk......
Firecatguy
New member
agreed!!!!you have the freedom to spend your money where you choose...smoking or non-smoking and the Bar owner has the right to his property and use it how he sees fit........
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lenny
Guest
you say it so much better than myself. Most people here think it is more reasonable for a non smoking family to not visit a place where there is smoking verses the smoker stepping outside with consideration. that is the bottom line here folks, this point keeps coming up and if your selfish you continue to demand someone to compromise hugely while the smoker puffs away with no concern, that is what you are saying here, guess what, it's been decided for you because you made the wrong decision. When I was a kid my dad did a similar thing, we would drive around after church to got out to eat and if they didn't serve beer we didn't go, I hated that because in my opinion "Bills" restaurant had the best food and was close to home but my pops needed the brew so we all suffered. Some addictions never change and impose bondage, I will never do that to my family.
I'm a slightly tipped as I have had 2 Busch light's, he he he
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L
lenny
Guest
the only thing your missing is that the private property is open to the public therefor subjecting the majority to a health risk, DONE!!!!!
It's only a health risk IF they choose to enter it. Nobody is forcing them to enter or not enter. If they enter, they assume the risk. Of course, they're free NOT to enter it.
This, of course, is all hypothetical. Thankfully, our all-knowing Big Brother has made that decision for us. Much like he has made the decision for us to wear seatbelts and helmets.
Just wait for the day that somebody decides that snowmobiles, ATV's, boats, PWC's, and the like are all just non-essential, hazardous, excessively noisy and polluting forms of transportation and that they ought to be banned. I dare say that owners of these vehicles are probably in the minority of the general population. And majority rules, right? Let's see how many people cry foul then.
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It should be the property owner's right! No one is suggesting that someone can't start a bar and not allow smoking!
cat_man_mike
New member
OMG this hurts my brain!
Let's dumb this down for a second. Running through the dining room with a chainsaw is "legal". But it obviously endangers the patrons and the people who work there. It would be foolish to set someone do that. If owners where stupid enough to allow that behavior in EVERY RESTURAUNT AND BAR IN THE STATE people would be up in arms for someone to stop that. Again for the "I don't know how many"ith time. When smoking is alowed in every establishment in the state, you are ENDANGERING the innocent nonsmoking patrons, essentaly telling them either expose yourself to harmful second hand smoke (firecatguy, I truely feel sorry for you for thinking otherwise) or stay home for every meal, essentaly punishing them for not smoking. The state is NOT TELLING YOU THAT YOU CAN'T SMOKE, it is telling you that you cannot punnish others by essentaly banning them from every indoor establishment in the state. How people can be so self centered, selfish and lets face it, lazy, that the simple act of walking outside for 5 minuites to have their smoke is so "unpatriotic" that they feel they have to P,B, &M about it is both sad and frustrating. Be honest, you are not sticking up for the Bar owners. This has nothing to do with the owners right to choose to be a smoking establishment or not. Like was said in an earlier post, before all of the health standards, it was an owners "right" to keep a filthy kitchen. It helped them to make more money by not having to pay for cleaning supplies and someone to clean the place. It also allowed them to reuse old product that may or may not have spoiled. It obvoiusly endangered the patrons, so laws where put in place for the safety of the patrons, to make the bar and resturaunt owners keep a somewhat clean and sanitary workplace. EXPLAIN HOW THIS IS IN ANYWAY DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!!
Let's dumb this down for a second. Running through the dining room with a chainsaw is "legal". But it obviously endangers the patrons and the people who work there. It would be foolish to set someone do that. If owners where stupid enough to allow that behavior in EVERY RESTURAUNT AND BAR IN THE STATE people would be up in arms for someone to stop that. Again for the "I don't know how many"ith time. When smoking is alowed in every establishment in the state, you are ENDANGERING the innocent nonsmoking patrons, essentaly telling them either expose yourself to harmful second hand smoke (firecatguy, I truely feel sorry for you for thinking otherwise) or stay home for every meal, essentaly punishing them for not smoking. The state is NOT TELLING YOU THAT YOU CAN'T SMOKE, it is telling you that you cannot punnish others by essentaly banning them from every indoor establishment in the state. How people can be so self centered, selfish and lets face it, lazy, that the simple act of walking outside for 5 minuites to have their smoke is so "unpatriotic" that they feel they have to P,B, &M about it is both sad and frustrating. Be honest, you are not sticking up for the Bar owners. This has nothing to do with the owners right to choose to be a smoking establishment or not. Like was said in an earlier post, before all of the health standards, it was an owners "right" to keep a filthy kitchen. It helped them to make more money by not having to pay for cleaning supplies and someone to clean the place. It also allowed them to reuse old product that may or may not have spoiled. It obvoiusly endangered the patrons, so laws where put in place for the safety of the patrons, to make the bar and resturaunt owners keep a somewhat clean and sanitary workplace. EXPLAIN HOW THIS IS IN ANYWAY DIFFERENT!!!!!!!!!!
Grub-
Thanks, but I am pretty up to speed in the electoral college and how a president is chosen. I also understand that the president can make appointments to his cabinet, but those folks are in the executive branch and not the legislative branch. The executive branch does not make the laws (I know a law has to be signed into action by the president too, but a 2/3rds vote can over rule the presidents veto), the legislative branch does and they are voted in by majority rule. You can choose to believe that your vote does not count and these representatives will do what ever they want, but the fact is, the law MAKING portion of our government is 100% voted in by the voting public. For what is is worth, many of your state and local laws (including this smoking ban law) are also voted in by majority rule by the general voting population.
Oh and for what is is worth, Pelosi and Reed were not chosen by the president, they were chosen by popular vote from their fellow senators and house members. The president does not appoint them and they have no more voting power than any other senator or representative.
-John
Mike, this is hurting my brain, too. If you have read my previous posts -- carefully -- you'd find my responses to the filthy kitchen and why I think it's a different situation, how people can choose whether to enter or not enter an establishment that allows smoking, that I am NOT sticking up for the practice of smoking, nor is this debate about somebody telling smokers they can't smoke (they're not, and that's why it shouldn't be part of this debate).
I respect your opinion, but please don't suggest that I'm being dishonest when I say I'm sticking up for BUSINESS owners (I never said BAR owners). I'm sticking up for the right of owners to choose for themselves and suffer the consequences, or reap the benefits, whichever may occur. That's it; nothing more, nothing less.
In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter....it's here, more than likely to stay, and life goes on. How long till the trails open?
Firecatguy
New member
don't feel sorry for me mike.......feel sorry for my 3 uncles my cousin and my brother who ALL own Bars!!!!!AND FOR ANY OF YOU TO BLAST ME FOR TELLING THAT BAR ARE DOWN ON SALES AND PROFIT WELL THATS JUST PATHETIC!!!and for the other person who said"most places that have not recovered are dives" well my friend....my uncles place is a 2.1 million dollar building...not including the ovens,bar,tables.glasses.....so I truly feel sorry for you and you nanny state way of thinking....as i said before....wait till it effects you and yours....by the way you all keep passing up Donna post(mosquito bar) and how her numbers are down!!!!
your so freaking fast at telling people how to live and I think thats its just down right sad....take care of yourself.....don't tell others how to live....
and mike they have heath regulations on food so your scenario holds no friken water......
just so you know the state of MN is not just happy with you standing outside in the weather.....they don't want any shelters or side rooms...*** is that....
and to let the casinos and smoke shops be smoking well thats two friken sided...here in my town their is a smoke shop that JUST opened next to a bar (in the same mall RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER) and yes smoke free in bar but smoke shop has a room for smoking cigars and cigs...thats just firkin WRONG!!!!!
I see this as another nail in the coffin of The Place We call America!!!!
I just love how some you think your so friken right when telling others how to live...then you throw insults at anyone who disagrees with you...don't feel sorry for me my friend feel sorry for yourself.......
thunderstruck88
New member
Starting next week, your dad's health problems that eventually led to his death are going to air. Have you seen the episodes? Will you watch?
No, I haven't. I really don't know what they're going to air. It's very important to me. It's going to be really hard reliving this. It's hard enough to have my father gone, but to actually be able to see everything happen ... He had the pulmonary embolism to start with, then two years later he had a massive stroke. His brain went without oxygen on one side for 12 hours on the right hand side. They ended up cutting the whole right portion of his skull off. That was very traumatic. He was getting better, making medical history on the fastest recovery for someone of that nature. The doctors didn't understand it. They said it was going to be 2-3 weeks before opening his eyes, an hour later he opened his eyes. They said it could be a couple months before he could breathe on his own, the next day he ripped the breathing tube out of his throat. They said he'd probably never be able to eat, and the fourth day into it he started swallowing ice and being able to eat. They said he'd never walk, he started shuffling around walking. In the end though, it was a pulmonary embolism that killed him -- the blood clot -- and that was all caused by smoking. One artery, say you hold up your pinky finger... that would be the size of a normal artery. One of his looked like a toothpick. It was all caused by smoking, 100 percent without a doubt smoking killed my father.
Me and my brother have gone into this wellness kick. I'm going to promote not smoking as best as I can throughout the US. If I can save one life, I don't want anybody to have to go through the s--t we just went through. It's the most horrible thing ever.
Smoking seems to be a part of the crab fisherman's lifestyle and culture, no?
When I was 10 years old, my dad put a cigarette into my mouth and told me if I'm going to be a fisherman, I need to be a man. Smoking is part of a job. Then throughout high school, that's what you did to fit in. If you could have seen my dad and spent time with him in real life and known what a wonderful person he was and how much fun he was, those type of people belong on this earth. They make the world a better place, and if I could change just one life, that would be sufficient enough and I'm going to use whatever power I've got to do that. I'm not going to stop, and I'm going to do all I can to inform people that life is a precious thing and you never know what's going to happen next.
to me this is good enough to quit and this article is about the late Phil Harris of Deadliest Catch fame You all that smoke leave so much behind when you get CANCER and die and leave your loved ones to mourn all over a STUPID thing called smoking
No, I haven't. I really don't know what they're going to air. It's very important to me. It's going to be really hard reliving this. It's hard enough to have my father gone, but to actually be able to see everything happen ... He had the pulmonary embolism to start with, then two years later he had a massive stroke. His brain went without oxygen on one side for 12 hours on the right hand side. They ended up cutting the whole right portion of his skull off. That was very traumatic. He was getting better, making medical history on the fastest recovery for someone of that nature. The doctors didn't understand it. They said it was going to be 2-3 weeks before opening his eyes, an hour later he opened his eyes. They said it could be a couple months before he could breathe on his own, the next day he ripped the breathing tube out of his throat. They said he'd probably never be able to eat, and the fourth day into it he started swallowing ice and being able to eat. They said he'd never walk, he started shuffling around walking. In the end though, it was a pulmonary embolism that killed him -- the blood clot -- and that was all caused by smoking. One artery, say you hold up your pinky finger... that would be the size of a normal artery. One of his looked like a toothpick. It was all caused by smoking, 100 percent without a doubt smoking killed my father.
Me and my brother have gone into this wellness kick. I'm going to promote not smoking as best as I can throughout the US. If I can save one life, I don't want anybody to have to go through the s--t we just went through. It's the most horrible thing ever.
Smoking seems to be a part of the crab fisherman's lifestyle and culture, no?
When I was 10 years old, my dad put a cigarette into my mouth and told me if I'm going to be a fisherman, I need to be a man. Smoking is part of a job. Then throughout high school, that's what you did to fit in. If you could have seen my dad and spent time with him in real life and known what a wonderful person he was and how much fun he was, those type of people belong on this earth. They make the world a better place, and if I could change just one life, that would be sufficient enough and I'm going to use whatever power I've got to do that. I'm not going to stop, and I'm going to do all I can to inform people that life is a precious thing and you never know what's going to happen next.
to me this is good enough to quit and this article is about the late Phil Harris of Deadliest Catch fame You all that smoke leave so much behind when you get CANCER and die and leave your loved ones to mourn all over a STUPID thing called smoking
Firecatguy
New member
oh now people should not smoke at all????Phil smoked 9 and half pacs a day...he also drank 36 red bulls in 3 days maybe it was the red bulls????I don't agree with the Alcohol thats is consumed and then the people drive....lets ban alcohol too...I see too many people dead from the wrecks and think it high time we ban drinking again.....and any bar who dont stop this now we should do an Eminent domain on the property then give the land to wallmart that should solve the worlds problems....
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thunderstruck88
New member
als I don't want to pay to your insurance to cover your bad health yes I don't smoke and NEVER will I want our kids and grand kids to have a healthy life and we Adults lead by example and right now the adults in this country are NOT doing a good job on anything period Ask your self if you want your kids to smoke , drink? take drugs? Rob or go in a life of crime ? murder? This country has gone to hello badly cause the kids emulate what us adults to and it starts at home
They also told housewifes to smoke to beat the stress from the kids. Fred Flinstone did cigarette ads, how's that for marketing to the youth.
firecatguy-
For what it is worth, I was talking about places in the Keweenaw not anywhere else, the term "dive" might have been a little too derogatory, but I really was at a loss for words to describe a bar where the vast majority of patrons go in and sit at the bar and drink and smoke and the bar really has nothing else going on or much else to offer. I don't have a problem with them and have friends that own such establishments.
I am sorry that your uncles and cousin are having problems due to the new law.
Hope your day gets better, sure looks like it started out not so good. Keep in mind all folks are entitled to their opinion and many might not agree with yours, but getting snappy with them is pretty much you telling them how to live, right?
One last question for you. Hypothetical of course and you can answer if you want. But I was wondering how you would feel about the law being repealed, but then these business owners that choose to allow the act of smoking to go on in their place to be open to lawsuits from either employees or patrons? After all, they would be making the choice on their own that they will allow something that has PROVEN to cause health problems happen in their place of business and thus should be responsible for their actions.
Personally, I would be all for that one. It gives the business owners the option to run things as they want (which I am actually for in most cases), but also makes a person responsible for their actions, which I am always for.
-John
For what it is worth, I was talking about places in the Keweenaw not anywhere else, the term "dive" might have been a little too derogatory, but I really was at a loss for words to describe a bar where the vast majority of patrons go in and sit at the bar and drink and smoke and the bar really has nothing else going on or much else to offer. I don't have a problem with them and have friends that own such establishments.
I am sorry that your uncles and cousin are having problems due to the new law.
Hope your day gets better, sure looks like it started out not so good. Keep in mind all folks are entitled to their opinion and many might not agree with yours, but getting snappy with them is pretty much you telling them how to live, right?
One last question for you. Hypothetical of course and you can answer if you want. But I was wondering how you would feel about the law being repealed, but then these business owners that choose to allow the act of smoking to go on in their place to be open to lawsuits from either employees or patrons? After all, they would be making the choice on their own that they will allow something that has PROVEN to cause health problems happen in their place of business and thus should be responsible for their actions.
Personally, I would be all for that one. It gives the business owners the option to run things as they want (which I am actually for in most cases), but also makes a person responsible for their actions, which I am always for.
-John
Firecatguy
New member
yep and your right......last thing I ever want to do is to tell people how to live their life.....and for that IM SORRY.......I need more Coffee oh wait I think thats the problem this am TOO MUCH Coffee...LOL.....
I don't smoke (anymore) and think its a sick habit!!!I just get a little worried about our freedoms that we loose everyday and no I don't think its someones freedom to smoke in anyone's face!!!I also was a bad smoker in my time...dint care what people thought as a matter a fact the more you pushed me the more i smoked......but with that said i think this is an Education issue not a Government protecting you from yourself issue....yes something needs to be done about smoking in public places I whole hardily agree on that....I just don't agree on the way its getting done.........what is so wrong with a smoking room not connected to the bar???? we also need to remember that each state has different regulations pertaining to this issue and MN has some tufff guidelines that a bar has to follow......
firecatguy-
I also want to apologize if I pushed your buttons wrong. That is one of the problems with typing on a forum like this. Your voice tone cannot be heard and so the words can be taken a different way than intended. I totally respect and believe in the idea of personal freedoms that you are trying so hard to argue for. I have owned my own business for over 20 years and helped other start and agree that the less government involvement the better.
I have worked at several bars, some "dives" and some pretty hopping spots. One that I worked at while in college had this thing called a "smoke eater". It was basically just a box that hung from the ceiling that had some big blowers in it. It would suck in the air and filter it and I never could tell that someone was smoking in the place and I am VERY sensitive to smoke (perhaps the reason why I am so against smoking in places that non smokers go, that and the fact I had cancer and it's no fun, believe me!).
Anyway, when this law was passed. I thought that it was good, but that there were other solutions to the problem. Like you say, have a sealed smoking room or use these smoke eater devices. I guess our society just goes from one extreme to the other sometimes and forgets to try the middle ground.
Like I say, I hope that business can rebound for your relatives bars. I hate to see any business suffer.
-John
I also want to apologize if I pushed your buttons wrong. That is one of the problems with typing on a forum like this. Your voice tone cannot be heard and so the words can be taken a different way than intended. I totally respect and believe in the idea of personal freedoms that you are trying so hard to argue for. I have owned my own business for over 20 years and helped other start and agree that the less government involvement the better.
I have worked at several bars, some "dives" and some pretty hopping spots. One that I worked at while in college had this thing called a "smoke eater". It was basically just a box that hung from the ceiling that had some big blowers in it. It would suck in the air and filter it and I never could tell that someone was smoking in the place and I am VERY sensitive to smoke (perhaps the reason why I am so against smoking in places that non smokers go, that and the fact I had cancer and it's no fun, believe me!).
Anyway, when this law was passed. I thought that it was good, but that there were other solutions to the problem. Like you say, have a sealed smoking room or use these smoke eater devices. I guess our society just goes from one extreme to the other sometimes and forgets to try the middle ground.
Like I say, I hope that business can rebound for your relatives bars. I hate to see any business suffer.
-John
1-snowbullet
New member
just my thoughts !! I am a smoker and could care less about the bar thing AND YES I LOVE SMOKING MY CIGARS (( calms my nerves)) .. BEEN doing it since ive been born back then they dident have the health warnings like they do now SAYLAVEE.. anyways my mother smoked while i was in her womb hence was smoking since i was born . now its been in my system for 45 years and **** or high water if im quitting !!! If i would i would probally develope cancer like my grandmother or loose my mind like my grandfather god rest both there soals .. back in the day our so call gov. steped in and abolished alcohol the proabition i believe it was the 20's-30's now they are stepping in and trying it on smokers .. as a indaviduel its MY CHOICE TO SMOKE and no one can change that .. ive met people who out lived NONE SMOKERS by 5-10 years and were fine .. SO saying this Its a bunch of HOOO HAA I do though get sick and tired of the harrasment by none smokers Its there choice to walk away if they dont ohhh well .. If i want to smoke in a bar They sell these cool little ELETRIC cigaretts bothers NO ONE !! (( the lop hole in our system )) .. so say what you will i will keep puffing till i hit into my 90's and the funny thing is my doctor said my lungs are perfectly healthy hmmmm cant figure that one out .. Y.T. Bruce