WI residents: AWSC wants to force you to join a club or raise your registration
- Thread starter dntsne1
- Start date
1 out of 8 snowmobilers belong to a snowmobile club. The other 7 "ride for free."
I am in favor of this legislation. People that are agianst it can do one of three things if CAP/STEP passes.
1. Don't Ride
2. Join a club
3. Pay up and ride.
I am sick and tired of being the few that help put in trails every year and then people come up to me to say that our trails suck or the signing sucks. Those are usually the people that don't belong to a club and have no idea how involved the process is. Throw some money our way for trails and maybe our "sucky" trails will change.
I am in favor of this legislation. People that are agianst it can do one of three things if CAP/STEP passes.
1. Don't Ride
2. Join a club
3. Pay up and ride.
I am sick and tired of being the few that help put in trails every year and then people come up to me to say that our trails suck or the signing sucks. Those are usually the people that don't belong to a club and have no idea how involved the process is. Throw some money our way for trails and maybe our "sucky" trails will change.
Tying fees/taxes to whether you belong to a private club. Sounds a little dangerous, this assumes all clubs are productive, And work for the sport.
Gotta tell some are hardly more than a group of drinking buddies. Then they better start checking to make sure clubs are doing some good for the sport.
Gotta tell some are hardly more than a group of drinking buddies. Then they better start checking to make sure clubs are doing some good for the sport.
lookin4snow
New member
Keep in mind that the money generated from this program goes to the snowmobiling program. An individual club must then apply for reimbursement of trail maintenance expenses as they have always had to do. So, the money that is generated by non-club members through the purchase of trail passes does not get to the clubs unless qualified trail maintenance expenses are incurred. Therefore, the “drinking buddies” won't get any money unless they do eligible work on a funded trail.
I am a club member and I also support this legislation. Same as 440 & 90s, everytime I hear someone complaining about the trails, the first thing I do is ask them if they belong to a club. 95% of the time the answer is no. The non club members that don't help don't understand what it takes to set up, maintain and then take down again, the trail every year. I appreciate all the work that you and your family do on your land that contributes to our trail system DNTSNE1, and thank you for it.
Maybe I am wrong here, but at this point in the game, the club member is paying more to ride the trails than the nonmember and is doing all the work.
Member - Club membership fee + registration fee
Nonmember - Registration fee only
Buy creating the "credit" for the member, the price to ride the trails is virtually the same. I believe we need more members to make the trail system survive and improve. Too many people don't know what it takes.
Maybe I am wrong here, but at this point in the game, the club member is paying more to ride the trails than the nonmember and is doing all the work.
Member - Club membership fee + registration fee
Nonmember - Registration fee only
Buy creating the "credit" for the member, the price to ride the trails is virtually the same. I believe we need more members to make the trail system survive and improve. Too many people don't know what it takes.
scott_l
There are many things that could be done but first I think the AWSC needs to identify why they are loosing members. Why in the early 2000’s did the AWSC have 40,000 plus members and now it is at 26,000. What was done so well to get to the 40000? Then what has changed since then. Identify the problems and come up with solutions. I know I am making it sound trivial but it may or may not be.
As for the local clubs, the AWSC I think should identify the best practices from ALL clubs and help provide this knowledge to all the clubs.
Very true that a couple new leaders will not solve the problem, but the right new leaders and new ideas could make the needed difference.
“a very small percentage of snowmobilers actually contribute to the sport. But a large percentage have no problems bashing an area or club because the trail they where riding Saturday afternoon was bumpy or poorly marked!”
Regretfully this is true, but looking at it this way, the grooming is looked at as a service provided “because the clubs have to”. I know this is not the fact but I do not think that the general rider really pays attention and/or they take this for granted. (much like snowtiger said)
How can this changed? I can only come up with a idea of more education of the user base on what goes into the system, the maintenance (before, during, and after the season) and the cost, and man power that is needed for all of this.
iusmit
I feel that the AWSC is running the association all in a old school manner, the thinking is not progressive. During this past year I have talked to many club members (of course they are also then a member of the AWSC) and they have expressed some concerns that the AWSC does not take kind to progressive changes. I have been told by some very high members that some of the changes that are being proposed (like the OWI tie) will kill our sport. Like any body, change is not taken very well but when I see that the AWSC used to have 40,000 plus members to now 26,000 members that down ward membership means something.
I will say this bluntly I think the clubs that I have worked with are GREAT, they are a great bunch of people and they are all hard working, and some of them are close family friends BUT the AWSC is where I have a problem. The AWSC represents themselves as the organization that represents ALL snowmobilers in WI and that is FAR from the truth. A 11 - 13 % stake in the community does not make you majority holder and they should not be trying to portray the organization as so. All the times I have spoken to Bill Schumann or other leaders I never get the whole truth, nor does anyone else (including their membership) (sorry to say guys I am not bashing you just telling facts).
What about the people who are already in the clubs that do not do anything except pay their dues and maybe attend a couple meetings. I feel they are the same as the guy who is not part of the club, does not help with any trail work but yet spends $20 on raffle tickets.
I think that the CAP/Step program is an act of desperation, force people to pay a fee or join a club. If this gets more members to the AWSC do you really want these Forced members? There is no guarantee that they will help out or even participate, they paid there money and they want to ride. These are the same people that complained, and will still complain and still will expect the same things they did before. As a organization you want happy contributing members, these are promoters they will bring in new, and positive new members, where as the forced members will be your detractors and bring negative blood to the organization. This is why I said and will say, this is an act of desperation.
Also talking about club members paying more to ride, what about the land owner who lets the trails go across their land, they still have to pay taxes on the land (member or non member) during the months the trail use the portion of the land. The taxes for the 4 months is more then $20.
Or what about the guy from southern WI who comes up to eagle river (1 trip a year or multiple trips a year), pays for gas, lodging, meals….. his money is going to the bars and restaurants, gas stations, hotels that also sponsor the trails, these are the same establishments that with out this revenue may not be able to support the local clubs. So anyway you look at it the “I pay more” argument can go both ways.
I am sure if this was the DNR proposing this fee change with out a “Discount” to the AWSC club members or a discount to all non members the situation would be completely opposite.
There are many things that could be done but first I think the AWSC needs to identify why they are loosing members. Why in the early 2000’s did the AWSC have 40,000 plus members and now it is at 26,000. What was done so well to get to the 40000? Then what has changed since then. Identify the problems and come up with solutions. I know I am making it sound trivial but it may or may not be.
As for the local clubs, the AWSC I think should identify the best practices from ALL clubs and help provide this knowledge to all the clubs.
Very true that a couple new leaders will not solve the problem, but the right new leaders and new ideas could make the needed difference.
“a very small percentage of snowmobilers actually contribute to the sport. But a large percentage have no problems bashing an area or club because the trail they where riding Saturday afternoon was bumpy or poorly marked!”
Regretfully this is true, but looking at it this way, the grooming is looked at as a service provided “because the clubs have to”. I know this is not the fact but I do not think that the general rider really pays attention and/or they take this for granted. (much like snowtiger said)
How can this changed? I can only come up with a idea of more education of the user base on what goes into the system, the maintenance (before, during, and after the season) and the cost, and man power that is needed for all of this.
iusmit
I feel that the AWSC is running the association all in a old school manner, the thinking is not progressive. During this past year I have talked to many club members (of course they are also then a member of the AWSC) and they have expressed some concerns that the AWSC does not take kind to progressive changes. I have been told by some very high members that some of the changes that are being proposed (like the OWI tie) will kill our sport. Like any body, change is not taken very well but when I see that the AWSC used to have 40,000 plus members to now 26,000 members that down ward membership means something.
I will say this bluntly I think the clubs that I have worked with are GREAT, they are a great bunch of people and they are all hard working, and some of them are close family friends BUT the AWSC is where I have a problem. The AWSC represents themselves as the organization that represents ALL snowmobilers in WI and that is FAR from the truth. A 11 - 13 % stake in the community does not make you majority holder and they should not be trying to portray the organization as so. All the times I have spoken to Bill Schumann or other leaders I never get the whole truth, nor does anyone else (including their membership) (sorry to say guys I am not bashing you just telling facts).
What about the people who are already in the clubs that do not do anything except pay their dues and maybe attend a couple meetings. I feel they are the same as the guy who is not part of the club, does not help with any trail work but yet spends $20 on raffle tickets.
I think that the CAP/Step program is an act of desperation, force people to pay a fee or join a club. If this gets more members to the AWSC do you really want these Forced members? There is no guarantee that they will help out or even participate, they paid there money and they want to ride. These are the same people that complained, and will still complain and still will expect the same things they did before. As a organization you want happy contributing members, these are promoters they will bring in new, and positive new members, where as the forced members will be your detractors and bring negative blood to the organization. This is why I said and will say, this is an act of desperation.
Also talking about club members paying more to ride, what about the land owner who lets the trails go across their land, they still have to pay taxes on the land (member or non member) during the months the trail use the portion of the land. The taxes for the 4 months is more then $20.
Or what about the guy from southern WI who comes up to eagle river (1 trip a year or multiple trips a year), pays for gas, lodging, meals….. his money is going to the bars and restaurants, gas stations, hotels that also sponsor the trails, these are the same establishments that with out this revenue may not be able to support the local clubs. So anyway you look at it the “I pay more” argument can go both ways.
I am sure if this was the DNR proposing this fee change with out a “Discount” to the AWSC club members or a discount to all non members the situation would be completely opposite.
Have to respond to a couple of issues stated above. I don't recall the AWSC mbrshp being 40,000, I think the highest it was awhile back was close to 32,000. All organizations are experiencing mbrshp problems, the AMA, NRA, Blue RIbbon,etc. When things are going good, people do not see the need to support or join the organization that fought for their rights, whether it be hunting, snowmobiling or whatever.
Anotheer somewhat misstated conception was that the State hands out the money to the clubs. This is true in a way, but the money they are handing out is the money you paid for your registration and money from a gas tax formula. The money a club gets is based on the number of funded trail miles a club has($250/mile). This may seem like a lot but it gets used up very quickly. Most northern clubs (and alot of the southern clubs lately have used all of the $250/mile before the end of the seasonand then go into "supplemental"(supplemental is again totally user funded by out of state trail pass and gas tax formula). Usually the claims in Supplemental are pro-rated, in other words, if a club claims $1, the pro-rate usually runs 60-80%. Now keep in mind that the clubs own their tractors/tuckers/piston bullys etc, these cost from 80,000 to 140,000, trail drags cost approx $8,000. So late in the season, the clubs are actually losing money because of the pro-rate, most clubs somehow find the means to keep on grooming.
I somewhat agree that you should not be "forced" to join a club. But then I look at this way, I pay my registration, and pay my club dues, and volunteer my time.(my choice) then I look at the non-club member, he pays registration and that is it, in a way he is getting a free ride at someone elses time & expense.
I have been very vocal at the AWSC dir meetings on several issues, the most recent being SB 215. Our club was one of the first in the state to be asssed personal property tax on grooming equipment, this amounts to $2-$4,000 that the club has to pay in taxes that has to come directly from club money. SB215 would exempt the clubs from this tax. It has passed the senate, and now the assembly has to act on it by Nov 3. The clubs just cannot shoulder this additional monetary burden.
Anotheer somewhat misstated conception was that the State hands out the money to the clubs. This is true in a way, but the money they are handing out is the money you paid for your registration and money from a gas tax formula. The money a club gets is based on the number of funded trail miles a club has($250/mile). This may seem like a lot but it gets used up very quickly. Most northern clubs (and alot of the southern clubs lately have used all of the $250/mile before the end of the seasonand then go into "supplemental"(supplemental is again totally user funded by out of state trail pass and gas tax formula). Usually the claims in Supplemental are pro-rated, in other words, if a club claims $1, the pro-rate usually runs 60-80%. Now keep in mind that the clubs own their tractors/tuckers/piston bullys etc, these cost from 80,000 to 140,000, trail drags cost approx $8,000. So late in the season, the clubs are actually losing money because of the pro-rate, most clubs somehow find the means to keep on grooming.
I somewhat agree that you should not be "forced" to join a club. But then I look at this way, I pay my registration, and pay my club dues, and volunteer my time.(my choice) then I look at the non-club member, he pays registration and that is it, in a way he is getting a free ride at someone elses time & expense.
I have been very vocal at the AWSC dir meetings on several issues, the most recent being SB 215. Our club was one of the first in the state to be asssed personal property tax on grooming equipment, this amounts to $2-$4,000 that the club has to pay in taxes that has to come directly from club money. SB215 would exempt the clubs from this tax. It has passed the senate, and now the assembly has to act on it by Nov 3. The clubs just cannot shoulder this additional monetary burden.
General Discussions: Miscellaneous : Wis. Senate Bill 264
--------------------------------------------------are these two tied together? I never got an answer from my senator!!Kind of leaves the trapper,remote ice fisherman,photographer,bird watcher,etc who wants to use his sled out in the cold. I bet this is all leading to user-pay like Ontario .Fees got so high that membership dropped way off and clubs having a very hard time funding grooming. We need to make sure the money is going to clubs with the most use and miles groomed and the money grabbers shut down!----------------------------
By campfire42 on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 07:49 pm: Edit Post
I just read about this Wisconsin Bill 264 soon to be passed making it a crime to go off trail while snowmobiling or ATVing on public land.
Hope this didn't pass as it would make it unlawfull to ride your sled anywhere but on marked trails or with permission on private lands.
--------------------------------------------------are these two tied together? I never got an answer from my senator!!Kind of leaves the trapper,remote ice fisherman,photographer,bird watcher,etc who wants to use his sled out in the cold. I bet this is all leading to user-pay like Ontario .Fees got so high that membership dropped way off and clubs having a very hard time funding grooming. We need to make sure the money is going to clubs with the most use and miles groomed and the money grabbers shut down!----------------------------
By campfire42 on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 07:49 pm: Edit Post
I just read about this Wisconsin Bill 264 soon to be passed making it a crime to go off trail while snowmobiling or ATVing on public land.
Hope this didn't pass as it would make it unlawfull to ride your sled anywhere but on marked trails or with permission on private lands.
There are some pretty good points here for both sides that made me think about this deeper. I am member of Wi club, help out whenever I can and I have always seen it is the few that do the work. Just the other day I posted a thread noting that someof the guys I was working with were 60-70 years old but no one younger than my 43yr was there.
I personally do not like state organisations. I live in IL and will never join a club down here again for multiple reasons but a main one was the IASC, which the present AWSC leader was the leader of in the past. We tried to get involved at the state level and I tell you what I do not know if it was because we were in our 30s and had different views or what but I can say it was not a good experience. These state level organisations take care of their "even smaller group" and complain about membership but if you don't agree with everything or fit it you are an outsider.
I do have one thing to add about what we saw from one state level person that really made me mad was a double dipping on expenses in IL and WI in the name of doing the clubs work, yea right.
What to do about the current problem, well that it pretty big issue that is a simple problem but the solution is complicated. I personally enjoy our time we spend helping and it bothers me when I hear guys complaining as I totally understand what it takes to run a trail system. One instance last year I was staying with the club president at his home when at 2am the groomer called and we had to suit up and go out in the -20 temp to help get things fixed and this happens many times a year at any club. I think the main problem is the "entitlement" a lot of people feel, how do we overcome that.
I know when we cover a trail that is bad, we just chalk it up to bad timing and do not blame anyone for it, now if other would feel that way...
..off my soapbox
I personally do not like state organisations. I live in IL and will never join a club down here again for multiple reasons but a main one was the IASC, which the present AWSC leader was the leader of in the past. We tried to get involved at the state level and I tell you what I do not know if it was because we were in our 30s and had different views or what but I can say it was not a good experience. These state level organisations take care of their "even smaller group" and complain about membership but if you don't agree with everything or fit it you are an outsider.
I do have one thing to add about what we saw from one state level person that really made me mad was a double dipping on expenses in IL and WI in the name of doing the clubs work, yea right.
What to do about the current problem, well that it pretty big issue that is a simple problem but the solution is complicated. I personally enjoy our time we spend helping and it bothers me when I hear guys complaining as I totally understand what it takes to run a trail system. One instance last year I was staying with the club president at his home when at 2am the groomer called and we had to suit up and go out in the -20 temp to help get things fixed and this happens many times a year at any club. I think the main problem is the "entitlement" a lot of people feel, how do we overcome that.
I know when we cover a trail that is bad, we just chalk it up to bad timing and do not blame anyone for it, now if other would feel that way...
..off my soapbox
Maybe have pit stop owners pay 25 cent tax on every barley pop sold and send to state for distrubution!LOL I hope all the local clubs will get their rightfull share of the funding as intended without any skimming off the top for politics. Not to get off the topic but I see my WPS power bill now includes a fee to pay Vilas county DA's salary.I will remember my senators next election!!
Everyone that rides the trails should be a club member somewhere. I don't care if you own land or not. We own an 80 the club goes across and I still join there club.--(BECAUSE I RIDE ON THERE TRAILS). JUST CAUSE YOU BUY A SLED DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO RIDE ON THE TRAILS. Join a club or stay home!! LOSERS
crispyknite
New member
joining a club is like having a snowmobile family. You go on club trips, picnic ,do fund risers, ect. what ever your club likes to do.
No club NO trail plain and simple. the club buys all the trail signs and puts them up. cleans the trails, asks land owners if we can use they land for the trails. buys the groomer and grooms them so We have a nice trail to ride on. No matter if your a club member or not we all got to pay to play.
No club NO trail plain and simple. the club buys all the trail signs and puts them up. cleans the trails, asks land owners if we can use they land for the trails. buys the groomer and grooms them so We have a nice trail to ride on. No matter if your a club member or not we all got to pay to play.
crispyknite
New member
United we trail....Divided we fail
Snowmobiling is not A right.. It's a privilege
Snowmobiling is not A right.. It's a privilege
I belong to a club live in Iowa and do not know where the club even meets. I would like to attend meetings but 1st tues of the month except holidays doesnt work and getting a letter that says are going to do brushing on sat and recieve it on the monday after doesnt help. So things have to work both ways if they want help.
This thread is good, we are all talking about this issue but magie03 you had to take it off base. You are representing a club and then you show lack of respect for other posters/ snowmobilers?
Owning a sled does not give me a right to ride the trails, paying my registration does. Like it or not but this is the way it is.
Just because you choose to be a club member does not make you better then anyone else.
90s I thought this is what I saw from the AWSC workshop paper work, I will look at it again and correct my numbers if need be.
The membership maybe down with the economy but is this the fact or a assumption, either way using the NRA as an example (sort of a bad one since they have so much $$)they have done a excellent marketing campaign to try and gain new membership, they did not try and make every gun owner join their organization or be forced to pay a fee.
There is way to much money built into this proposed fee, we are talking close to $3 million dollars a year basing it off of the current registration numbers and AWSC numbers.
Owning a sled does not give me a right to ride the trails, paying my registration does. Like it or not but this is the way it is.
Just because you choose to be a club member does not make you better then anyone else.
90s I thought this is what I saw from the AWSC workshop paper work, I will look at it again and correct my numbers if need be.
The membership maybe down with the economy but is this the fact or a assumption, either way using the NRA as an example (sort of a bad one since they have so much $$)they have done a excellent marketing campaign to try and gain new membership, they did not try and make every gun owner join their organization or be forced to pay a fee.
There is way to much money built into this proposed fee, we are talking close to $3 million dollars a year basing it off of the current registration numbers and AWSC numbers.