WI residents: AWSC wants to force you to join a club or raise your registration

jpsted

New member
dcs,

I agree that the rights/privilege discussion is certainly an emotional topic. And in legal terms may seem rather black and white as per your discussion re: my constitutional rights.

However, there is gray area and room for interpretation (i'm no attorney so will not try to explain from a legal standpoint, but rather a laymans point of view with help from NMA News).

Various court decisions have come down on both sides, especially regarding ones privilege or right to drive. Regulatory bodies and legislators have favored privilege status and this is no accident. Privileges are more easily controlled and regulated than rights. Furthermore, if they are the dispenser of a privilege, their powers and influence are enhanced.

Consequently, these public and private entities have spent several decades describing and referring to driving as a "privilege." Through repetition, usage and public policy, what was not necessarily so, has more or less become accepted fact. The purpose of this discussion is not to argue that driving is a right or privilege. It's to discuss how individual freedoms evolve from potentially being rights to privileges subject to government dispensation. A recent news item exemplified this process in action.

A local person confronted two auto thieves who were in the process of trying to steal his car for the second time in one week. He shot one of them.

The local District Attorney in discussing whether or not to bring charges against the car owner, explained that there were certain criteria that had to be met before a citizen could exercise the privilege of self-defense. Now self-defense is a privilege! Defending one's property or person is a privilege!

If pressed, the D.A. would probably say that what he meant was that using lethal force is a privilege.

Of course, if you can't use lethal force, your options for self-defence are pretty limited. Just as if you can't drive, your personal mobility is pretty limited.

The District Attorneys objective, and that of a sizable proportion of officialdom is to have the ownership, possession and use of lethal force (primarily firearms) classified as a "privilege."

Privileges can be tightly regulated and, with little justification, taken away..."Rights" present greater obstacles to confiscation.


The moral of the story is: If you have an activity, hobby, possession or lifestyle that the government types and the media start describing as a "privilege", you better man the ramparts!
 

blu2u2

New member
magie03 sorry for the long delay with getting back on how this will work in the future. Below is the reply from our County AWSC Director and the WI Snowmobiler of the Year!

"This is what I know about it.
1 - we club members now pay dues of 20 or 25 dollars per year.
2 - we also pay 15 dollars a year to register and ride the trails each year.
3 - That equals 35.00 dollars.

Under the new plan we would pay a one time 5.00 dollars to register our sled with the DNR.
We would also pay on average the 20 (single) or 25 (family) dollars for club dues.
We would also pay 15 dollars for a trail pass each year. After the $5 (one time registration fee is paid) club members will pay 35-40 dollars per year.

A non club person now pays his 15 dollars and rides our trails.

Under the new plan he would pay 5.00 dollars same as everyone. Then he would have to pay $35.00 to get a trail pass.

If he chooses not to join a club, and pays the 35 dollars, the 35 goes into the trail fund. If he joins a club, the club gets the dues and 10 dollars going to awsc. He then has to pay 15 dollars for the trail pass sticker the same as you and I do.
Now if you use a paper and pencil you will see that all snowmobilers would pay the same amount.
ALL WOULD PAY 5.00 REG. ONLY ONE TIME FOR AS LONG AS YOU OWN THE SLED..ALL WOULD PAY 35 DOLLARS A YEAR TO RIDE THE TRAILS.
Hope this helps you a little. Marv"
 

magie03

New member
The way I see it----jpsted and dscnomo have it all figured out. All snowmobile trails they ride are going to be public trails, not private land owners.

Both of these guys have valid ponts on what they are trying to say, but they still do not understand the meaning of being in a club. Then you will understand how much work goes into these trails. We have kids that are active in our club that do alot of work also. They will tell you that they were the ones running off of the trails on farmers fields, knocking over signs, ect----until they joined a club and seen how much work goes into it. You 2 rant and rave, but other then just talking and paying for your registration, what do you do for snowmobiling?
 

renegade

Active member
I think many people realize the number of "active" club members will increase with this legislation. I am sure a few with become active if they join a club. But the bottom line if the number of members in the awsc were 100,000 instead of 26,000 that is a much more powerful lobbying force in madison. Also, with the new law, the money will be for snowmomiling only. It does not matter if you join the awsc or not, wisconsin is one of the cheapest states to register a snowmobile in and we are short money. The registration needs to be raised.
 

jpsted

New member
magie03

I don't believe it was a "rant and rave"...sorry. I clearly realize many trails go through private land and have always respected that....but tell me, you seem to be all in favor...how does this help the private land owner?

You can force/mandate people to join clubs all you want...does that mean they will participate outside of paying dues....not likely. I'm not certain where you live Magie, but lets use Vilas county for example, the BoBoens and Barnstormers Clubs out of St. Germain and Sayner. The bulk of their memberships are already people not living in the area. Since this is a Wisconsin hot spot, many people who are going to be joining clubs under this proposed change will be joining clubs like this where they travel too....they'll pay dues but additional work will only come from a small percentage. How many locals do you think will be signing up as new members in these areas...not many. I believe there is a false expectation about this, certainly on your part and perhaps that of many clubs, that this will increase actual physical participation. I just disagree with that assumption.

My point is that the few people that are currently doing all the work will continue to do the majority of the work...the club will just have more members and more money. Are you Magie, still going to continue to do the majority of the work, but be more satisfied with additional members and dues?

But i'm curious, please educate all of us, and tell us your "meaning of being in a club".
 

jpsted

New member
renegade,

I agree with you on the AWSC being a much more powerful lobbying force with a larger member base and therefore am all for this. But it won't solve the other issues raised in the thread.
 

magie03

New member
I just wish everyone could be more educated. So people that own snowmobiles understand how much work it is. And if it wern't for these clubs THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN. I have a perfect example for you. A person in our community bought a house in a culdasac last year----he took his snowmobile across his neighbors yard, and cut across a new wheat field--that a farmer (that we asked to put the trail down his farm lane)owned. That farmer got pissed off becuase he was going on his wheat field. Who do you think that farmer called?---(not that guy). We went and talked to the guy in the house, and he said how else am I suppose to get to the trail? It only takes one person cutting across somebodys land to get to the trail without asking the landowner for permission to reck it for all of us. They need to be more educated. They all don't need to be involved, they can be educated through our clubs newsletter, other club members, ect. This is just one example. I do agree, where is all the money going to go? AWSC, DNR, CLUBS, or just get lost in the shuffle? There are alot of unaswered questions. But if you do not get involved sometimes you shouldn't have a opipion.

Thanks
 

jpsted

New member
Magie

I don't think we disagree...but the topic of education, courtesy, respect, and being law abiding...isn't solved with this bill. And it's not always solved by just being a club member.

Don't get me wrong, I support this proposal, club membership and higher registration fees (I am a member of a club and have been for years).

Given the obstacles our sport faces with continued pressure from liberals, I am all for a larger AWSC. As a matter of fact, with stronger finances, I'm even for paid positions. But I believe with paid positions, it's only fair for members to expect leaders that are not inept. I'm not saying this is the case with current leadership, I cannot say at this point. But I think it's something that all concerned will need to take a careful look at.
 

whitedust

Well-known member
With more money can clubs sub the work out?

I worry about a corrupt patronage system with more club money vs all volunteer labor. I agree if people are forced to join clubs it will increase their feelings of entitlement. "Hey I paid for this get it taken care of". You may pick up a few new helpers but society today feels entitled. Good luck changing that just the way it is now days.
 

whitedust

Well-known member
I thought the IPASS post was "A Hoot" worth a laugh. magieo3 all is not as bad as you may think today....always a tomorrow & some good ideas in this post on both sides of the issue.You have to think like the average John Doe sledder to understand what he thinks he would be paying for & he would be part of the club now if he chose so. IPASS is a better way to travel IL toll road & makes you think hey what if......? No too technical for trails & we can't even agree on registration sticker placement lol
happy.gif
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dcsnomo

Moderator
magie03- Have we met? Must have, because you have already decided that I am not involved in a club and don't understand how they work. Odd, since I am very involved in my club and understand the work, funding, and issues. Ranting and raving? Huh?
 

qber

New member
Join a club and do some work - the trails don't just appear- they are there because of the clubs and the clubs can always use your help.
Ted
 

blu2u2

New member
qber (Ted)- you are correct. This past weekend when I was at the AWSC booth at the Green Bay, WI Snow Show I had someone ask me what it takes to get more volunteers to help his club on getting their trails marked.

The more members a club has, the more likely the club will have the support to help get the trails ready. Maybe I am wrong but this seems logical.
 

whitedust

Well-known member
I belong to ski clubs, snowmobile clubs, swim clubs, lake management clubs & the work is done by just a few no matter how many members you have. You have drivers & a whole lot of passengers along for the ride. Yep whole lot of talking but few doers. More of a social thing than worker bees.
 

qber

New member
Club dues and the social support even if you just show up to have beers is at least a good start
Ted
 

renegade

Active member
FYI The awsc website is now running. http://www.awsc.org If you have any questions about this legislation or any other areas of the awsc maybe you can find the answer or email someone who can answer your question.
 

tomx

Member
"I am in favor of this legislation. People that are agianst it can do one of three things if CAP/STEP passes.

1. Don't Ride
2. Join a club
3. Pay up and ride."

X2
 

90s

New member
The cap/step program finally has a bill number. It was assigned on 11-21-09. It is SB406, there will be a long road to hoe before this becomes law. Some have stated we need a different sponsor other than the DNR, there is credibility to this statement, but I would hate to see WI in the same boat that MI is in now. Funny, no one has said what the registration is in Canada. When the bill does become law, whether you join a club or not, the cost to ride will be apporx the same. The bottom line is, more money is needed to keep up the trail system
 
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