Nice would be an understatement. It needs to get done, and I can see the benefits in working with the governors people, I'm more skeptical than most when in comes to government intervention. Wisconsin has the top trail system in the world and it was completely done with volunteers and their money, and to keep the system healthy it should stay that way.
WI Trail Funding Poll
- Thread starter blu2u2
- Start date
The task of getting increased trail funding into our Wisconsin snowmobile program is not that difficult. All that needs to be done is to have full support of the general snowmobiling public and snowmobile owners in agreement on meaningful and truthful legislation, then these initiatives can move through the capitol! Mission accomplished.
Unfortunately this is not happening and WILL NOT happen as long as attempts continue to move something called Cap/Step through the capitol. Cap/Step’s intentions are good—create increased funding through the registration process and by the addition of a trail pass for all snowmobiles. But Cap/Step, which has been around since about 2005, and in the Capitol in both 2010 and 2012, and now once again rolling along already with an LRB number (LRB2943) is not likely to make it a third time either since it still contains the $20 per sled per year penalty for snowmobile owners who dare not to join the AWSC, a requirement included in this third attempt to make it a law. Get rid of this requirement and stop the attempts to divide the snowmobilers into two groups—club members and those who cannot or will not join the private organization of AWSC.
Legislators are not buying this legislation, and as each day goes by, more and more snowmobilers and even individual clubs and county associations are realizing that the Cap/Step proposal is flawed, and is holding back any increase in snowmobile program funding due to AWSC’s continuing focus on Cap/Step and nothing else. Cap/Step is in effect holding the snowmobile program hostage, and after so many years now with no increased funding, clubs and others have come to realize that their new trails that they apply for, or other projects, are NOT receiving any funding because the way over-due increased funding is not going to happen until Cap/Step goes away. Snowmobile clubs and the volunteers that put in the trails deserve better than this.
There is a better way out there for the much needed increase in funding to occur. The Wisconsin Snowmobile Recreation Council presented a proposal back in December, 2012, that would cause this to happen with a quick and simple increase in the registration costs of each snowmobile, via a trail pass that would have a cost equal and proper for ALL snowmobile owners, without a penalty for non-club members. Discussion of the proposal also included a way that would not require owners needing to attach another sticker to their snowmobiles. When a vote was taken, the motion to pursue this was passed by a majority of the council members. But until Cap/Step disappears from AWSC’s radar screen, this proposal will not likely move forward.
It’s time to move on, and that means Cap/Step must disappear so that everyone can get together and urge our legislators to pass some unbiased legislation for increased funding to the program.
Unfortunately this is not happening and WILL NOT happen as long as attempts continue to move something called Cap/Step through the capitol. Cap/Step’s intentions are good—create increased funding through the registration process and by the addition of a trail pass for all snowmobiles. But Cap/Step, which has been around since about 2005, and in the Capitol in both 2010 and 2012, and now once again rolling along already with an LRB number (LRB2943) is not likely to make it a third time either since it still contains the $20 per sled per year penalty for snowmobile owners who dare not to join the AWSC, a requirement included in this third attempt to make it a law. Get rid of this requirement and stop the attempts to divide the snowmobilers into two groups—club members and those who cannot or will not join the private organization of AWSC.
Legislators are not buying this legislation, and as each day goes by, more and more snowmobilers and even individual clubs and county associations are realizing that the Cap/Step proposal is flawed, and is holding back any increase in snowmobile program funding due to AWSC’s continuing focus on Cap/Step and nothing else. Cap/Step is in effect holding the snowmobile program hostage, and after so many years now with no increased funding, clubs and others have come to realize that their new trails that they apply for, or other projects, are NOT receiving any funding because the way over-due increased funding is not going to happen until Cap/Step goes away. Snowmobile clubs and the volunteers that put in the trails deserve better than this.
There is a better way out there for the much needed increase in funding to occur. The Wisconsin Snowmobile Recreation Council presented a proposal back in December, 2012, that would cause this to happen with a quick and simple increase in the registration costs of each snowmobile, via a trail pass that would have a cost equal and proper for ALL snowmobile owners, without a penalty for non-club members. Discussion of the proposal also included a way that would not require owners needing to attach another sticker to their snowmobiles. When a vote was taken, the motion to pursue this was passed by a majority of the council members. But until Cap/Step disappears from AWSC’s radar screen, this proposal will not likely move forward.
It’s time to move on, and that means Cap/Step must disappear so that everyone can get together and urge our legislators to pass some unbiased legislation for increased funding to the program.
LRB2943 is as close to the funding we need, as we have ever been. The AWSC and the SRC are now working together, and that is a good thing. LRB2943 has been drafted by Rep. Mary Czaja and has not yet been voted on by the AWSC,that will happen at the next Diectors meeting in a month. I know that there is lots of opposition, but now is not the time to kill something that may finally get us the money we need. I do believe that if it fails this time, that we not try CAP/STEP again. I don't think it would get the votes to support it again. But, right now we need to try and get this passed and move on.
I spend from 2-5 weeks a year riding in on Wis. trails. I put atleast $50 in trail jars every week most of time more. This money goes to club trails that I ride. I also belong to a club in Wi.,Iowa,Il and Mich. Is $50-$1oo is to much to ride my $12,000 sled for a week? Do you think that area that has 500 sleds could use the extra $25,000???
This is my problem with statement like this. Most of us know that trails will not appear without clubs. Why would it be a "PENALTY" for non club members? Would it not be an incentive to get out and do some trail work? The fact that anyone would call it a penalty for non club members is a joke. Why are there non club members? I understand that I was raised in a family that was in a club, so I have a biased view. But how can anyone who gets into the sport, understand how the trails are maintained and new tails are formed, look at the process and say "I don't need to join a club?" Maybe not enough people understand snowmobiling is a great priviledge, and not a right. Without club members, volunteer club members at that, this priviledge would not exist. To anyone who says cap/step penalizes a non-club member, I say so what. It rewards snowmobilers. A person who at the very least is not a club member, is just a owner and rider of a snow machine. Snowmobilers join clubs, mark trails, maintain and groom them, and then, when they get a chance, ride the trails! Now I ask any non club member, what is wrong with rewarding snowmobilers?
Even though I agree with what you are saying renegade; unfortunately the majority of the snowmobile owners in WI DO NOT see it this way. Given that fact that only 25,000 +/- snowmobilers belong to the AWSC, and WI has about 225,000 to 250,000 registered sleds, clubs members are the MINORITY! The non-club members (majority) rule.
What zozo2 said above is sad but true. I can't see the CAP/STEP going forward if it treats club members and non-club members differently.
F
fusion
Guest
Cap step is doomed to not being considered, as it does not treat all equally, and it mandates people to participate that may not want to. The solution to better trails is not more fees, rather continuing improvement in processes to utilize optimal time to groom and to eliminate grooming in less than desirable conditions. Seems to me the trails have been very good the last few years and I didn't hear about clubs struggling with trail funds, even in a relatively high snow year, like last year. blu2u2 has it completely right - club members are in the minority for a reason, because they are more social in nature than functional. And there are certain areas of the state that just do NOT have sufficient snow on a consistent basis, to justify a clubs time, effort, and dues to maintain trails. What's good for a club in northern WI, is not good for a club in southern, WI. You certainly can't mandate people in low snow areas to join a club - what's the benefit and objective? To fund all the other trails in the state, with money split equally? That doesn't make any sense.
Just for clearification, I have been putting in trails, talking to landowners, and been a member of several clubs for years and years, going back to the time when there was no AWSC or snowmobile laws. Among my background history with snowmobiling, I had been membership chair of one of the top ten AWSC clubs in the state for about 10 years, and had tried everything possible to encourage more non club members to join, but it is always the same--we loose about 10% of our members every year due to many different and quite valid reasons, but we also had gained about the same number due to snowmobilers moving into our area, new snowmobilers to the sport, etc. And every year, we have found no trouble in getting the trails in because snowmobilers need a place to ride, and it is always about the same 10% of club members who are really active and actually do all of the volunteer work that needs to be done for a club to function. There are probably few people who have done just half maybe of what I have done to get new members, and I still believe and support the fact that snowmobilers SHOULD belong to a club, but they just should not be "forced to join or else." Some people will simply not join, and their reasons for not joining or dropping out of the club(s) are very valid and need to be respected (surveys were done on this). It is just plain not right to have non club members having to pay more to ride the trails than club members, when most club members really don't do anything active within the club to start with, and most non club members who are active riders support the clubs anyway through donations, buying their raffle tickets, etc. etc. It just seems that the $20 surcharge has earned the right to be called a penalty based on the background of this club member vs non club member issue.
OK, now let's fast forward for a minute and consider that the following could occur if Cap/Step were to pass: A non club member and his family of four decides he/they simply cannot belong to a club (maybe he works two jobs, lives too far away, simply does not believe that he has to join AWSC through his club, has an older sled that he can still ride occasionally, etc.) So he pays the $20 "surcharge/penalty." Isn't it very likely that he now feels he has paid his share of the funding increase that he agrees is needed? Might he now feel that he believes he has no further obligation to join a club and respectfully states, when asked to join, that "...I've paid my way, now stop asking me to join...", and "...Please don't bother me anymore to help with the trails...", and "...I am no longer going to support your raffles or donate to the groomer jars...", and to even go one step farther "...And now that you've got your increased funding I expect to find more and better quality trails or I will be complaining..." Talk about "DIVIDING" snowmobilers into two groups rather than "United we trail" it would appear that the passage of Cap/Step has indeed created a bigger problem than we had before, let's hope this scene doesn't require a bartender to call the police if things get physical!
In all the info that I have received on this subject from the AWSC, I have never heard it said that it was a "penalty" to not join a club. It is an incentive to join a club. If you don't join, fine, that's an extra $20 in the pot. I like to look at it as a reward for club members. I realize that a few members do all the work, but think of all the time those few donate. I don't see non-club members rushing to join a club over this, but I do think current members will appreciate the "reward". Maybe we should look at it as being a "thank you" to club members from non members.
At the end of the day, whether we agree on this or not, the simple fact of the matter is that the snowmobile program needs more money. This may not be the perfect answer for everyone, but it does bring us the needed funding.
At the end of the day, whether we agree on this or not, the simple fact of the matter is that the snowmobile program needs more money. This may not be the perfect answer for everyone, but it does bring us the needed funding.
Only IF it is passed will it bring the needed funding....! Until then how many more clubs will only get 50-60 percent back in supplemental funding?
Maybe the problem is too many clubs make it on 50% supplemental pay. I haven't heard what the amount is after last year, but my guess is well below 50%. Maybe clubs need to shut down after they reach supplemental to prove a point. I think there are valid arguments against cap/step. But to argue that it isn't fair to a non-club member is complete b.s. in my opinion. If you are a non club member and don't like what is going in in the sport, tough crap. My biggest concern is there are 25,000 or so members in the AWSC, thats a half million in rewards. Where does that money get taken from that could be used elsewhere? What if membership doubles? Thats a million bucks. Is that worth it? I don't know the answer to that. But I cannot grasp the fact a non club member would be up in arms cause he was charged $30 a year and a member who puts in hours of volunteer time only pays $15. How can an intelligent person argue against that? Its not like the member is doing a easy job just to put some time in. If they were not there, there would be no trail. Not a unbrushed, unmowed, ungroomed peice of arse trail. NO TRAIL!
I call bs
The crap step (snowmobile elimination program) does not address the supplemental pay, yes there will be more funding then currently but what if the src increases the supplemental pay out to a crazy rate and they use up all the money and we don't have enough to pay out at the whole 100%. This is the same premise as now, becasue we have so many pay outs we run down the funds and then are hit with a pro rate.
Some clubs do stop grooming and then people stop riding those trails, sort of a backfired plan.
Non club members are not the minority but the majority here, so to think that the non member wont care I disagree. The non members will balk at being penalized for not belonging to a club, some will just join a club to get a discount and others will not. Just because a person joins does not mean they will help or volunteer, ask the New York program about that.
What if for some crazy reason we get a 100% participation for clubs? (NY has about 90%) Using the 100% the awsc (always wanting snowmobilers cash) gains to see 2.2 million, this is not the clubs that gain the millions but the aswc (biting the hand that feeds). That is 2.2 million that could help the snowmobile program, help the clubs get paid for their time and money put out. So I guess I should say always wasting snowmobilers cash...
To say that the non club member has no say? Why? They buy their trail passes and pay into the state program, they buy our club raffle tickets, our trail maps, contribute to the groomer fund, they visit our club houses, buy our food and drink, they visit our sponsors and buy food, drink, gas, parts, clothing, snowmobiles, they participate in our activities (ie poker rides, radar runs...) they attend and purchase items at our fund raisers such as the pancake breakfast...and then we give them the middle finger and say pay up?
The argument is that 80% of the work is done by 20% of the members here, why should a member who just pays money to the club be entitled to a discount on a the registration? (and before you ask it, YES I am a club member)
If not for the land owners there would be NO TRAIL!
The crap step (snowmobile elimination program) does not address the supplemental pay, yes there will be more funding then currently but what if the src increases the supplemental pay out to a crazy rate and they use up all the money and we don't have enough to pay out at the whole 100%. This is the same premise as now, becasue we have so many pay outs we run down the funds and then are hit with a pro rate.
Some clubs do stop grooming and then people stop riding those trails, sort of a backfired plan.
Non club members are not the minority but the majority here, so to think that the non member wont care I disagree. The non members will balk at being penalized for not belonging to a club, some will just join a club to get a discount and others will not. Just because a person joins does not mean they will help or volunteer, ask the New York program about that.
What if for some crazy reason we get a 100% participation for clubs? (NY has about 90%) Using the 100% the awsc (always wanting snowmobilers cash) gains to see 2.2 million, this is not the clubs that gain the millions but the aswc (biting the hand that feeds). That is 2.2 million that could help the snowmobile program, help the clubs get paid for their time and money put out. So I guess I should say always wasting snowmobilers cash...
To say that the non club member has no say? Why? They buy their trail passes and pay into the state program, they buy our club raffle tickets, our trail maps, contribute to the groomer fund, they visit our club houses, buy our food and drink, they visit our sponsors and buy food, drink, gas, parts, clothing, snowmobiles, they participate in our activities (ie poker rides, radar runs...) they attend and purchase items at our fund raisers such as the pancake breakfast...and then we give them the middle finger and say pay up?
The argument is that 80% of the work is done by 20% of the members here, why should a member who just pays money to the club be entitled to a discount on a the registration? (and before you ask it, YES I am a club member)
If not for the land owners there would be NO TRAIL!
And while mentioning the word "landowner" in your post, Speedy, it needs to be noted here that with CRAP/STEP, that word doesn't seem to come up as one of their exemptions. So now, we who contact landowners for permission every fall might have to say "...Oh, by the way, AWSC wants all non-club members who own snowmobiles to pay an extra $20 to ride the trails, just so you know when you go out and ride the trail that crosses your land..." OMG, guess where that trail just went.
Hate to say this, but I think consolidation of clubs is still needed for some areas. Locally here we have 5 clubs within the county and some are literally separated by less than 6 miles. Yeah, we share grooming cost which has helped alleviate loss on that end along with renting out the tractors during the summer we manage to make a small gain to offset grooming costs but most years it is break even. I think with consolidating clubs more mileage would go to one club instead of 3 small ones and that club can then focus where needed. Yes, it isn't the cure but a start. STEP is not a cure, as I have said before it doesn't address a system that has flaws and until those flaws are fixed the clubs will still not have the money for bridges, new trails and upgrading of the trail system, and that is where the focus of the money needs to be, not on grooming or equipment but on the boots on the ground.
Here in the LaCrosse area we feel development pressure, and loss of land to it and the trails we do have need to be upgraded and maintained. We have the club members although it is largely an older group doing the work, the question is where do you find a way to save trails, make new ones and get young people to join a club? That's the basic questions..
Here in the LaCrosse area we feel development pressure, and loss of land to it and the trails we do have need to be upgraded and maintained. We have the club members although it is largely an older group doing the work, the question is where do you find a way to save trails, make new ones and get young people to join a club? That's the basic questions..
Hats off to the one guy or gal that had the set of balls to vote no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very good point. In our clubs case we have always made the landowner a member of our club, and a member of the AWSC. This way they will get the AWSC's magazine and maybe feel a bit more part of something and not just someone who is lending their property out. So this would not apply in our case. In my opinion something every club should be doing regardless of cap/step.
The above modification didn't make the vote, the src approved LRB-2943 plus:
-$5 late fee for trail pass bought after December 1st (yearly)
-Vintage sleds be exempt from displaying a trail pass, vintage was defined as 30 years or older from the current year
- Raising the non-resident trail pass fee to $50 (yearly)
-$5 late fee for trail pass bought after December 1st (yearly)
-Vintage sleds be exempt from displaying a trail pass, vintage was defined as 30 years or older from the current year
- Raising the non-resident trail pass fee to $50 (yearly)
We have the same issues here, I am one of the younger guys (in my 40'sssss), I am not sure what the answer is but heck I thought that's what we have the awsc for, aren't they spose to help us be successful as clubs? I guess I am starting to look at it this way, the awsc has no clue what we need to do and they for the past 9 years have kept telling us that if they polish this turd of crap step more it will be come gold...but its still a turd.