will you still go???

will you still purchess a trail pass?


  • Total voters
    245

xsledder

Active member
Wasn't picking on you in the slightest xsledder...I stated I appreciated your totals...is good to see. :)

Never got the impression you were picking on me. Wasn't offended or hurt in anyway by anything you have said to me on this thread. (Nor was I trying to convey such an emotion in my respond to you.)

You are welcome for the totals. I'm glad you appreciate it. Have a nice day.
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
The question permit owners and MI residents should be asking is how did the trail grooming go up 80% in the last two years or where is the money going that use to pay for it that you are not receiving anymore.

It is actually very transparent where the money is going, just not marketed well at all by the MSA or MI DNR. The fee increase was set in place for two reasons:

1)The state is now paying 100% of the cost of a new groomer and drag as well as major repairs. They also are increasing the amount of new groomers available to clubs when the funds permit (the fluctuation in available funds is due to the amount of major repair costs they have to dole out on existing grooming equipment).

2) The state is setting up a fund that will be used to purchase land to be then used as permanent snowmobile trails. Many areas in MI (and I suspect other states) are constantly facing issues with landowners no longer wanting a trail to go over their land or even worse the tree huggers buying a small section to cut the throat of that trail in a small spot and shut down the entire trail.
So MI is actually being pro-active in trying to create a situation where the land we use to snowmobile on will forever be there for snowmobilers. We as a group are always taking about fighting those that are trying to close areas down to snowmobilers. Well, this is part of that "fight". The process is a much smarter method though. Rather than fighting in the sad system we call the US Courts, they are just going to buy the land and then not have to ever worry about it again. I know that here in the Keweenaw, someone wanting to shut down nearly have the trail system would only need to persuade the current landowner to sell a few hundred acres. Pretty scary when you think about it.

This has been a great discussion. For the most part, very respectful on both sides. I can totally see the side of those that have decided they are priced out of the market. Everyone has a point that the amount paid is not worth what they get and I find it rude that anyone should tell that person that their point is wrong or cheap or anything like that. To me, paying 50 cents to attend a musical or poetry reading is way too much. There are lots that would differ with me on those thoughts.

I guess the point I am trying to make here is I think the MSA and DNR has dropped the ball big time on the reasons for the increase. It is equally mind boggling as to why the MSA would not want to jump into a forum like this and explain things. So I really wanted to get these points across so that folks would be able to see where this increase in funds will be going. I know the first time I heard the increase was going to happen and did not know the reasons, I thought it was a bad idea. Once I was told where the money would be going, I was all for it. By the way, the fund was created by a law and the money in it cannot be stolen by the bureaucrats in Lansing to fund pet project they have. So perhaps some folks will change their mind as to the merits of this increase, perhaps not, but I did want to get this info out there for everyone to make their own analysis with.

-John
 

Banks93

New member
John,

How were those expenses being paid prior to last year and this year?

How are the clubs in MI compared to the clubs in WI?

The WI clubs handle all the groomers, trail grooming and up keep on the machines.

The clubs then get reimbursed for gas and hours on the machines from the DNR. That is if a certain amount of clubs in the county fill out the information correctly.
 
D

Deleted member 10829

Guest
To me, paying 50 cents to attend a musical or poetry reading is way too much. There are lots that would differ with me on those thoughts.
-John

I thought your points were excellent and good information for everyone to have. It makes it even more clear to me. However, the quote above had me rolling! They would have to pay me to attend! :)

Banks93,

I would say the biggest difference is the plan to buy the land the trail is on. That is a great plan if it will work!
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
Banks-

The 100% coverage for new equipment and major repairs is new in the past year or two. I believe the jump in cost from 25-35 dollars was in response to that.

The land purchasing fund either just went into effect this year or will be going into effect next year, which was the main reason for the increase to $45.

MI does the reimbursements based on miles groomed and the fee actually fluctuates based on average fuel costs in that time frame.

There have already been a few clubs that went under due to not being able to pay for things. The DNR is trying all it can to stay out of having to actually do the grooming with their own employees or sub-contracted drivers. I think in some areas of the UP, the situation with grooming is way different than in other areas of the Midwest. I see people write on the area conditions and info section about a club "probably grooming this Thursday" and it is Monday. Here in the Keweenaw, about 85% of our 200+ miles are groomed twice a day. That's a lot of work and a lot of wear and tear and requires a lot more money. Not making excuses, just trying to point out that not all grooming requirements are the same in all areas.

-John
 

choc_lab

Member
I have a cabin on the Menominee river which is the boarder between Mi and Wi so I have to buy one no matter what. Some of the best riding is on the mi side of the river mostly fire lanes and unplowed roads .
 

Banks93

New member
Banks-

The 100% coverage for new equipment and major repairs is new in the past year or two. I believe the jump in cost from 25-35 dollars was in response to that.

The land purchasing fund either just went into effect this year or will be going into effect next year, which was the main reason for the increase to $45.

MI does the reimbursements based on miles groomed and the fee actually fluctuates based on average fuel costs in that time frame.

There have already been a few clubs that went under due to not being able to pay for things. The DNR is trying all it can to stay out of having to actually do the grooming with their own employees or sub-contracted drivers. I think in some areas of the UP, the situation with grooming is way different than in other areas of the Midwest. I see people write on the area conditions and info section about a club "probably grooming this Thursday" and it is Monday. Here in the Keweenaw, about 85% of our 200+ miles are groomed twice a day. That's a lot of work and a lot of wear and tear and requires a lot more money. Not making excuses, just trying to point out that not all grooming requirements are the same in all areas.

-John

I hope it works. I think the major hang up is the person has to want to sell the land that is being used.

Down in WI they have issues with the users being respectfull and staying on the trail and only using the trails when it is opened.

The UP is different with lots of locals and other people wanting to go off the trail.

I would think that maybe the MFG's could help eat some cost or like someone else posted the bars, hotels, casinos and others that benefit from the money of the tourism. Maybe call it a recreation tax to help all ATV, snowmobile and other recreational activities.

All I know is taxes, gas, toys are all getting some more of my money and I would expect everyone else's money and we aren't all getting raises or cost of living increases.

My House investment is in the crapper and looks like it is going to go farther into the crapper because of government.
 

EXCESSIVE FORCE

New member
It is actually very transparent where the money is going, just not marketed well at all by the MSA or MI DNR. The fee increase was set in place for two reasons:

1)The state is now paying 100% of the cost of a new groomer and drag as well as major repairs. They also are increasing the amount of new groomers available to clubs when the funds permit (the fluctuation in available funds is due to the amount of major repair costs they have to dole out on existing grooming equipment).

2) The state is setting up a fund that will be used to purchase land to be then used as permanent snowmobile trails. Many areas in MI (and I suspect other states) are constantly facing issues with landowners no longer wanting a trail to go over their land or even worse the tree huggers buying a small section to cut the throat of that trail in a small spot and shut down the entire trail.
So MI is actually being pro-active in trying to create a situation where the land we use to snowmobile on will forever be there for snowmobilers. We as a group are always taking about fighting those that are trying to close areas down to snowmobilers. Well, this is part of that "fight". The process is a much smarter method though. Rather than fighting in the sad system we call the US Courts, they are just going to buy the land and then not have to ever worry about it again. I know that here in the Keweenaw, someone wanting to shut down nearly have the trail system would only need to persuade the current landowner to sell a few hundred acres. Pretty scary when you think about it.

This has been a great discussion. For the most part, very respectful on both sides. I can totally see the side of those that have decided they are priced out of the market. Everyone has a point that the amount paid is not worth what they get and I find it rude that anyone should tell that person that their point is wrong or cheap or anything like that. To me, paying 50 cents to attend a musical or poetry reading is way too much. There are lots that would differ with me on those thoughts.

I guess the point I am trying to make here is I think the MSA and DNR has dropped the ball big time on the reasons for the increase. It is equally mind boggling as to why the MSA would not want to jump into a forum like this and explain things. So I really wanted to get these points across so that folks would be able to see where this increase in funds will be going. I know the first time I heard the increase was going to happen and did not know the reasons, I thought it was a bad idea. Once I was told where the money would be going, I was all for it. By the way, the fund was created by a law and the money in it cannot be stolen by the bureaucrats in Lansing to fund pet project they have. So perhaps some folks will change their mind as to the merits of this increase, perhaps not, but I did want to get this info out there for everyone to make their own analysis with.

-John

Thanks John for refreshing everyones memory on this...........


Like i said in the other related thread.....$10.00 more is no big deal considering what it's going to be used for.....
 

EXCESSIVE FORCE

New member
I would think that maybe the MFG's could help eat some cost or like someone else posted the bars, hotels, casinos and others that benefit from the money of the tourism. Maybe call it a recreation tax to help all ATV, snowmobile and other recreational activities.


What difference does it make how they get the money from you? You're still paying it aren't you??
 

indy_500

Well-known member
Indy likes nice round numbers?

But will you still go?????

Never been up there in the first place! That is why I didn't vote, I couldn't say No because I never bought one before, and couldn't say Yes because I've never bought one before. It is also why I've completly stayed out of this thread, and hid in the corner before people get jealous again about me being top poster.
 

Banks93

New member
Never been up there in the first place! That is why I didn't vote, I couldn't say No because I never bought one before, and couldn't say Yes because I've never bought one before. It is also why I've completly stayed out of this thread, and hid in the corner before people get jealous again about me being top poster.

Correct your vote would not count kind of like the MI vote. Thank you for reading.

When are you buying the Yamaha so I can pay the MI trail pass dues?
 

Hoosier

Well-known member
What difference does it make how they get the money from you? You're still paying it aren't you??

I for one am much more in favor of user fees as opposed to taxes. I think it makes a big difference.

I think I said it before, but I strongly support the use of the extra funds for permanent easements.
 
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