Electric vehicle

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Guest
For it to be a worldwide thing it sure is kind of a mess. How they are going about bringing it is not sitting well with people, you can't just demand that people go out and invest this amount of money in an EV. I think that is what people are saying, don't tell us how great this concept is when we get actual info that says for some people it doesn't live up to their expectations. This is not the way to bring a new product to market, if it was there would be more than 1 million EV's in the US. EV's have been around since 1895, however, it was 2008 before the first Tesla was delivered. So 14 years later only 1 million EV's are in existence. It could have been different but this administration blew it by forcing their Green Energy Policy on us and it will only set back whatever momentum that it had. By the way, I'm not totally against EV's but I will wait until they prove themselves for where I live and what I need to see as far as performance from them.
I would not argue with you that the transition is a disorganized mess. All the mfgrs are going off in their own direction. There is no universal charging platform. There are not enough charging stations at present. In the US anyway. Norway is probably the farthest along right now. China has more EVs than anyone. China makes tons of cheap EVs. But basically all the mfgrs worldwide are transitioning. Volkswagen, Hyundai, even Lamborghini all are phasing out Ice engines. Dodge will be following Porsche with their 800 volt 5 minute fast charge program. I personally think that this is the gold standard. But things are changing so fast. Solid state batteries are on the horizon that would eliminate the need for lithium and cobalt and all the other exotic minerals in use now. BUT. After 2035 it is going to be tough to even find a new ICE vehicle to buy. Just about all the mfgrs worldwide have pledged to discontinue them.

There is an interesting theory of EV adoption related to cell phones. There were many similar conditions in place before cell phones took off. Expensive. Limited coverage. Unreliable. Different formats. Seemingly no direction. Just a few companies going off in their own directions.

However once cell phones got to three percent market penetration they exploded. Do any of you know anyone over the age of 15 that doesn't have a cell phone? That doesn't live way out in the sticks and churns their own butter?

EVs are approaching that magical three percent.

And all these years later cell phones are still expensive and have coverage issues. But you can't be without one. Think about it.
 
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Guest
It doesn’t help when Biden says he ways to
stop the use of oil and fossil fuel, limits oil leases , shuts down the keystone pipeline and today says Ma And Pa don’t price gouge at the pump in FL. Lol. Everyone’s at fault but him. Sure Covid hurt but well past time to make adjustments to get business back on track plus Joe says the Pandemic is over.
Keystone was never going to contribute to the US oil supply. Keystone was supposed to transport crappy hard to refine tar sand oil from Canada ... Who had no way to refine it.... To the refineries in the the southern US that had the capability to refine it. It was then going to be shipped to China. The only thing lost when Keystone got nixed were the temporary jobs it would have taken to construct it. That's it. No matter what Sean Hannity tells you.
 
The main reason for our current high energy prices is Covid. Supply and demand got severely jolted and still have not balanced out. The main reason for supply chain issues that we still have is Covid. You can't go from 100 to 20 and then back up to 100 in the blink of an eye. The system is too complicated. And the reason we have the current regime is Covid. Mr Trump lost the most winnable elections ever. Had he said in May 2019 that it would be a good idea for everyone to wear masks until we get a handle on this thing he would have won in a landslide. So now we have what we have. If it wasn't so terrifying it would be funny.
I disagree…the current high energy prices are primarily due to the Biden Administration‘s disastrous energy policies not Covid. Just look at the trend in fuel prices after the change in power. Covid had already been around for a year before Biden took power and fuel prices were low and fairly stable.
 

whitedust

Well-known member
Keystone was never going to contribute to the US oil supply. Keystone was supposed to transport crappy hard to refine tar sand oil from Canada ... Who had no way to refine it.... To the refineries in the the southern US that had the capability to refine it. It was then going to be shipped to China. The only thing lost when Keystone got nixed were the temporary jobs it would have taken to construct it. That's it. No matter what Sean Hannity tells you.
The Keystone pipeline would have contributed to the world oil supply which is desperate for oil and gas. Keystone would be flowing full force if Biden had continued the funded project. Currently the world needs all the oil it can get. If battery technology can improve it would help EV market to grow but right now it’s just not ready and universal charging infrastructure is nonexistent.
 

mrbb

Well-known member
The main reason for our current high energy prices is Covid. Supply and demand got severely jolted and still have not balanced out. The main reason for supply chain issues that we still have is Covid. You can't go from 100 to 20 and then back up to 100 in the blink of an eye. The system is too complicated. And the reason we have the current regime is Covid. Mr Trump lost the most winnable elections ever. Had he said in May 2019 that it would be a good idea for everyone to wear masks until we get a handle on this thing he would have won in a landslide. So now we have what we have. If it wasn't so terrifying it would be funny.
WAIT???
I thought the high fuel prices were due to Russia?
isn;t that what the leader and is people keep telling us??
 

mrbb

Well-known member
I would not argue with you that the transition is a disorganized mess. All the mfgrs are going off in their own direction. There is no universal charging platform. There are not enough charging stations at present. In the US anyway. Norway is probably the farthest along right now. China has more EVs than anyone. China makes tons of cheap EVs. But basically all the mfgrs worldwide are transitioning. Volkswagen, Hyundai, even Lamborghini all are phasing out Ice engines. Dodge will be following Porsche with their 800 volt 5 minute fast charge program. I personally think that this is the gold standard. But things are changing so fast. Solid state batteries are on the horizon that would eliminate the need for lithium and cobalt and all the other exotic minerals in use now. BUT. After 2035 it is going to be tough to even find a new ICE vehicle to buy. Just about all the mfgrs worldwide have pledged to discontinue them.

There is an interesting theory of EV adoption related to cell phones. There were many similar conditions in place before cell phones took off. Expensive. Limited coverage. Unreliable. Different formats. Seemingly no direction. Just a few companies going off in their own directions.

However once cell phones got to three percent market penetration they exploded. Do any of you know anyone over the age of 15 that doesn't have a cell phone? That doesn't live way out in the sticks and churns their own butter?

EVs are approaching that magical three percent.

And all these years later cell phones are still expensive and have coverage issues. But you can't be without one. Think about it.
actually I know a LOT of folks that don't have a cell phone, nor do they have a computer or internet for that matter!
and they DON"T live in the middle of no where either, but right in town and in larger towns at that!.

as a fact, my parents don;t have either nor want them(no matter how hard me and my sister try to get them one for safety, or to be able to send pictures tot hem!)

they plain refuse to have them, as many other older folks I know!

as for me, , MY cell phone is 15+ yrs old, and honestly I could care less about using it, I have No internet on it, nor do i want it or NEED it!

and I for sure could live without one , I honestly don;t use mine much at all, its more for WHAT IF's or emergency's, and that's about all!

and with your example of, Cell phones as to E vehicles

well, as for cell phone's, they DO have a solution to pretty much coverage, its called a Satellite phone, works about every where and is available to ALL that want to PAY for one, can afford one!

yet, very few have them, and viewed I gather as more novelty items, or for special occasions ONLY!
so again, just cause something is being pushed now, doesn;t mean it will stay that way, and comparing other countries to the USA, isn;t always that simple, due to how differently, people live in different countries!

in most European countries, most folks get to work and travel by bus and public transportation, where very FEW do so in the US!
so what works in one place, doesn't mean its the right tool for the job or will be accepted or adapted for use else where, and at 3%
Its still a LONG ways off to being popular IMO!

and I am ALL for better vehicles, I don;t care what powers them,as long as its practical and affordable!
 

pclark

Well-known member
I would not argue with you that the transition is a disorganized mess. All the mfgrs are going off in their own direction. There is no universal charging platform. There are not enough charging stations at present. In the US anyway. Norway is probably the farthest along right now. China has more EVs than anyone. China makes tons of cheap EVs. But basically all the mfgrs worldwide are transitioning. Volkswagen, Hyundai, even Lamborghini all are phasing out Ice engines. Dodge will be following Porsche with their 800 volt 5 minute fast charge program. I personally think that this is the gold standard. But things are changing so fast. Solid state batteries are on the horizon that would eliminate the need for lithium and cobalt and all the other exotic minerals in use now. BUT. After 2035 it is going to be tough to even find a new ICE vehicle to buy. Just about all the mfgrs worldwide have pledged to discontinue them.

There is an interesting theory of EV adoption related to cell phones. There were many similar conditions in place before cell phones took off. Expensive. Limited coverage. Unreliable. Different formats. Seemingly no direction. Just a few companies going off in their own directions.

However once cell phones got to three percent market penetration they exploded. Do any of you know anyone over the age of 15 that doesn't have a cell phone? That doesn't live way out in the sticks and churns their own butter?

EVs are approaching that magical three percent.

And all these years later cell phones are still expensive and have coverage issues. But you can't be without one. Think about it.
I think we are below 1% still as we speak. US Population is 330 million, if 50% of that number (165 Million) drives, well you see the math. Its probably more like 80 million drivers in the US. 2040 seems more realistic vs the 2030 number that is being thrown around. Lots of things need to happen before it comes together to the point where ICE vehicles are no longer available. Massive charging infrastructure buildouts, much higher wages for average people to afford EV's, reasonable electric rates, etc. It's honestly scary that we have these Green People trying to push this as fast as they can without a plan, I call that a disaster if this is the plan.
 

ICT Sledder

Active member
It is not a world wide transition, at least in the context of the the short- or medium-term timeline. That's a farcical statement coming from a position of pure naivete. The developing world - India, China, Africa, probably Russia to some degree - cares not one single iota about the environment. They care about the cheapest way to build up their respective societies in the most cost-efferent manner, and in almost all cases that means little to no regard for environmental concerns.

It is - effectively - a religious belief held by a minority in power in the developed, western world, being forced upon the citizens therein. It is an irrational move for any number of reasons - limited consumer appetite for the product, electrical grid infrastructure limitations, range limitations, true environmental impact when electrical production and battery manufacturing are concerned, and most but certainly not least nothing resembling a realistic charging model. It is a group of elites, and their hangers-on, basically force feeding to the consumer of the western world that $2+$2=$5 because: just have faith. You have to remember that the progressive platform, of which EV's are a component, is not a pragmatic set of political values, it is an emotion-based, irrational pseudo-religion that gives no quarter (if they can help it) to dissenters and non-believers.
 

wiviperman

Active member
I'm definitely seeing some valid points on this discussion of electric vehicles. However, I do not see the switch over to total electric vehicles only ever happening. I actually hope it does not in my lifetime.
Where are the people that live on lower incomes ever going to find the money to purchase one? or maintain it? Are employers going to have to give people extra vacation time for anyone to travel with an electric vehicle?, as you spend more time charging than you do driving!
The thoughts of "speed charging" is beyond laughable, batteries don't do well on fast charging and that will just cause more failures and the need for more batteries.
We are just going to get rid of every Gas Station or have to retrofit them to become a charging station?, how much will that cost? & how long will that take?
So really, where are we going with this? If government and society wants to force everyone to have to rely on an electric vehicle and ceases the production of Internal Combustion Engines they are asking for mutiny.
Take away people's choice's and you leave them with no choice, the world is already a crazy place, it's about to get a whole bunch crazier if this is made the rule. People will lose their minds!
 
G

G

Guest
Most of you are grouping green energy with EVs. And that is why you are missing the point. The shift to EVs is not about green energy. It is about cheaper transportation. Not all EVs cost $80000 bucks. Hyundai and Volkswagen each have $30000 and $40000 EVs for sale right now. If you can find one.. And there will be more and cheaper EVs going forward. They will be cheaper to own and operate than a similarly priced ICE vehicle. The average daily mileage put on by the average American driver is far less than even the EVs with the smallest batteries can manage. China does not care even a little bit about the environment. I realize that. But they have more EVs than anyone else. Why is that? Because they are cheap to own and operate and they get the job done. Which is the same reason many of you will have one some day. Your wife's friend will get one and your wife will like it because it is fun to drive and cute. And she never has to go to a gas station and get stinky gas on her. She doesn't care about green energy at all. She wants it because it is fun to drive. And it always starts in the winter and it is quiet. Green energy has little to do with it.

The BS about the grid not being ready for it is largely a fantasy. The grid is severely underused at night. Which is why the plan is to charge at night. At home. On a clothes dryer circuit. Cheap.

As I have stated I am keeping my ICE pickup. For the times I need to do pickup things like towing. But I fully anticipate driving the Lightning 90 percent of the time . Using cheap off peak power to charge it. 4.5 cents a kilowatt hour. Cheap. There will be no oil changes. There is no exhaust system. Or transmission. Or fuel system. Or differentials. Basically just tires to wear out. The brakes will last virtually forever because of the regenerative braking system. Cheap to own. Cheap to operate. And that is why you will all own one someday.
I am the least 'green' person you will ever meet. Ownership of an EV is not about being green. It is about having a vehicle that fits your needs. If you are hooked up to something every day then look somewhere else. But if you are like 90 percent of the current population an EV will work just fine for you. Especially if you have more than one vehicle. It will be a no brainer in a few short years.

But this is a tough crowd. You are the 10 percent that use a pickup for a pickup. And I realize that. But like it or not it is coming. Sooner rather than later. And it will be a good thing. And you will never have to buy a muffler again. Or an EGR valve. Or fuel injectors. Or flush your transmission. Or fix a radiator. Or buy spark plugs. The cost to own and operate an EV is roughly 1/3 the cost to run an ICE vehicle. And that is why the transition will happen. Just forget the whole green energy argument. It had no bearing on my purchase and it doesn't have to have be part of your thought process either with regards to EVs.
 

gary_in_neenah

Super Moderator
Staff member
Every once in awhile something comes along and I'm surprised by it's popularity. Let's start with Cell Phones, anyone remember "The Brick"? How about Bottled Water...why would anyone pay for water when you can get a drink from any spigot? Both are billion dollar industries. And there's the World Wide Web, "you mean I gotta buy a computer to use the internet?" Yeah, that ain't gonna happen!

Grub makes some good points regarding maintenance of the EV's. I can see them as a family's second vehicle for after school stuff, groceries, etc. especially if they're comparable in price to the ICE models. And I'd prefer to see the market determine itself rather than the government forcing it.
 
G

G

Guest
It is not a world wide transition, at least in the context of the the short- or medium-term timeline. That's a farcical statement coming from a position of pure naivete. The developing world - India, China, Africa, probably Russia to some degree - cares not one single iota about the environment. They care about the cheapest way to build up their respective societies in the most cost-efferent manner, and in almost all cases that means little to no regard for environmental concerns.

It is - effectively - a religious belief held by a minority in power in the developed, western world, being forced upon the citizens therein. It is an irrational move for any number of reasons - limited consumer appetite for the product, electrical grid infrastructure limitations, range limitations, true environmental impact when electrical production and battery manufacturing are concerned, and most but certainly not least nothing resembling a realistic charging model. It is a group of elites, and their hangers-on, basically force feeding to the consumer of the western world that $2+$2=$5 because: just have faith. You have to remember that the progressive platform, of which EV's are a component, is not a pragmatic set of political values, it is an emotion-based, irrational pseudo-religion that gives no quarter (if they can help it) to dissenters and non-believers.
It is not a group of elites cramming this down our throats. It is the entire worldwide automobile industry jumping on the next big thing. It is about making money by offering a superior product. Does it fit the elite model? Yep, sure does. But that is just a coincidence. Actually it is about the only thing about the so called green agenda that makes any sense at all.
The entire world is tired of wild fluctuations on oil products. And being held captive by countries that were stone age level before oil came along. So this is a way out. Even a ten percent penetration of EVs will have dire consequences for the sandy towel head goat herders.

Are we trading one form of pollution for another? Absolutely. Are 10 year olds mining lithium in China? Probably. I don't care. There is nothing I am going to do about it. There is nothing you are going to do about it either. Go ahead and elect whoever you want. It really makes no difference.

Ride the tide. Make the most of the situation in front of you. Don't sit and complain and contemplate how things will be better in two years when your guy or gal gets elected. There are ALWAYS opportunities no matter who is in charge.
 
G

G

Guest
Anybody else notice all the EV commercials during NFL games? It costs a lot for prime time advertising. You can't tell me that these car companies are not jumping in to this with both feet. And this all got started long before our current administration.
 

pclark

Well-known member
It certainly will be interesting to see where this conversation ends up a couple of years from now. As I read the posts here it is painfully obvious that over 90% of the respondents are not on board with EV's. I am logging the date in my mind and will see where this ends up in 2024.
 

pclark

Well-known member
Anybody else notice all the EV commercials during NFL games? It costs a lot for prime time advertising. You can't tell me that these car companies are not jumping in to this with both feet. And this all got started long before our current administration.
I'm not sure GM is totally committed yet? Ford, yes, GM, not so sure.
 
G

G

Guest
I have seen a lot of Cadillac Lyriq commercials. Caddy is still GM last time I checked. The Hummers are already sold out so no sense pumping them.

Also a lot of Volkswagen ID4s.
 
I understand Grub’s point regarding the cost benefits of an EV vs an ICE vehicle. For a segment of the population, an EV is perfect. That segment will increase as the electrical grid becomes more capable, charging infrastructure grows across the nation and battery technology improves. Im 66 years old and it’s unlikely I’ll ever own an EV. An EV in its current state does not meet my needs and I don’t see sufficient improvement in the technology or infrastructure during my lifetime.

I’m able to separate Green Energy from EVs as suggested by Grub. That said, the destructive energy policies that have contributed to sky rocketing fuel prices has tied the two in the minds of many. When the out-of-touch Secretary of Energy and Secretary of Transportation simply tell us to purchase an EV in order to avoid high gas prices is a good example of that.
 

pclark

Well-known member
I have seen a lot of Cadillac Lyriq commercials. Caddy is still GM last time I checked. The Hummers are already sold out so no sense pumping them.

Also a lot of Volkswagen ID4s.
Not trying to be a wise ass but those two brands are not typically the working mans choice of a vehicle. And yes they are GM.
 

renegade

Active member
A Lot of arse statistics in this thread. (statistics pulled out of ones backside) EV's only cost effective if oil artificially inflated by government. They are not the next big thing. Are there enough brainwashed people out there who think they are helping change the climate by buying one to sell out in the near future. Yes. There is one reason we can't have both electric vehicle grid and ice vehicles at the same time. That reason is half the country has a my way or the highway mentality. Manufactureres' are being forced to produce electric vehicles cause one of the biggest states just banned the sale, not because its the next big thing. If it was market driven, people would switch over and oil would get cheaper and cheaper as the demand wanes. Why not just build a better product?
 

whitedust

Well-known member
A Lot of arse statistics in this thread. (statistics pulled out of ones backside) EV's only cost effective if oil artificially inflated by government. They are not the next big thing. Are there enough brainwashed people out there who think they are helping change the climate by buying one to sell out in the near future. Yes. There is one reason we can't have both electric vehicle grid and ice vehicles at the same time. That reason is half the country has a my way or the highway mentality. Manufactureres' are being forced to produce electric vehicles cause one of the biggest states just banned the sale, not because its the next big thing. If it was market driven, people would switch over and oil would get cheaper and cheaper as the demand wanes. Why not just build a better product?
Let’s assume CA doesn’t change and allow sale of ice Vs there will be ice dealers on the border of all states surrounding CA. There is always work around solutions for air head laws. Maybe liberals lose control of CA who knows. I sure wouldn’t live there cost of living is nuts!
 
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