Electric vehicle

[G]

A level 2 home charging system is simply a 220 dryer type type plug. A person will have to hire an electrician to bring 220 from your fusebox to your garage if you want to do it on the up and up. Then you will have the ability to charge to 80 percent in 8 hours if your battery is down around 20 percent. However for most it won't take that long because most will just plug in every day regardless of charge. In the coming years I don't see much changing with home charging. The mfgrs know that a 220 volt tap is all that can be expected from the average home. So once you get 220 to your garage you are done for now and for good. That won't go obsolete.

Plug in every night when you get home and forget about it. Every day you will wake up to 200 to 300 miles of range. Whatever you bought for an EV. Actually I don't see how you can call this inconvenient. To me this is a pretty slick system. And the cost to get 220 to your garage is not going to be prohibitive for most. In the very near future new houses will be built with 229 circuits to the garages to accommodate EVs. Just as Hotels and Motels are doing now. They call them Destination Chargers. Much is in place already and legislation has already been passed and money has already been earmarked for more public charging stations. It is just to actually build them out. Which is being done. As more EVs are built the market will become more competitive and prices will drop. The two things limiting EV growth are #1 availability. You can't get your hands on one right now. And #2 public charging stations. And those are funded and ready to go. In two years things are going to get caught up by a lot. In five years one half of new car sales will be EVs. In ten years it might be as hard to find gas out on the open road as it is to find electric right now. And in fifteen years they will be legislating gas passenger vehicles off public roads. My predictions. Not written in stone by any means

 

[katden4]

You cant even get a vehicle with heated seats right now. The timeline is not comprehendible.

 

[mrbb]

Indy - you are basing your opinion on old or bad info. The Lightning will charge from 15 percent to 80 percent in 41 minutes. A Porsche Taycan will charge from 20 percent to 80 percent in five minutes. The whole program is farther advanced than you - and a lot of people - realize. We are close. Not there yet, I will give you that. But a lot closer than you think.
Also the purchase prices between new EVs and new gas are getting very close. And no matter where you look the cost of ownership is cheaper than a gasser. Very simply there is much less to go wrong or wear out.

Lastly this is not a rich man's game. The entire point is that it will be cheaper to own and operate an EV as compared to a gas vehicle. And it will perform as well or better than a gas vehicle unless you like to tow a lot or are in the habit of driving 400 miles every day. Then you should also have a gas vehicle. That is the route I am taking. But I already know I will be driving my Lightning 90 percent of the time When I have to drive 400 miles one way I will take my gasser. When I tow sleds to Wisconsin I will take my gasser. When I haul my big boat to the lake I will use my gasser. The other 335 days of the year the Lightning will work just fine. And I will charge at home on off peak almost exclusively.
As for your concern on batteries and usable battery life there are Tesla's running around with well over 200000 miles on the original battery. The issue is overblown. Again, it is all further along than you realize. If you want to read doom and gloom there is plenty of it out there .But the reality is that EVs already work for a lot of people.

you say its NOT a rich person's game< HUMM< yet you say for many things you will have a second vehicle
well right off the bat, MOST folks DON"T have two vehicles
one being a novelty deal to drive to work and one for traveling and doing other things the E vehicle cannot do well enough to use it for!

lets see, a E vehicle f-150+ a second F 150 ICE motor, that's a chunk of change tied up in vehicles no?
Not really something the AVERAGE person can afford,
so, YES it is a wealthy person game right now
, like it or not
its at least an above avregare income game!

NEXT, you then say, just like a ICE vehicle, when traveling, MOST will drrive 250 miles then stop and fill up, or CHARGE these E vehciles
well, MOST E vehicles do go that far based on all the testing done to date by REAL testers and NOT those pushing them!

the F 150 your buying, shows this
and its , taking 40+ minutes to charge
the average ICE vehicle is fueled up in a few minutes and back on the road way
NOT everyone traveling has that extra income to stoop and have a meal every time they need fuel, that costs add up(a family of say 4-5 people traveling, eating at every fuel stop<< HUMM, more costs I say) not to mention the amount of down time, , so on a 1000 mile trip, , you at 4-5 hours of down time !


you then say COSTS of owner ship will be SO much lower<
I still don't; see that being a HUGE deal!
I get 15k out of oil changes if I wanted, motor is good for 200k(diesel)
E vehicles have many war and tear parts, bearings, tires, brakes, and a god amount of electrical connections(ask folks most common problems with trailer lights, corrosion issues on connections ??)
and what about depreciation costs here, as I have to think they will be huge to absorb, as they will be outdated and who will want them, as=dd in as they become more so called popular and BETTER, and cheaper to buy, these older one's will be pretty useless and not so easy to sell, so, as what will, they be worth> not much , if were honest! and wanted by few,
that factor's into ownership costs no?

next you say many e vehicles have gone 200,000 miles on there batteries, OK
MAYBE
but in what time frame
BIG difference in a battery going 200+ in 1-2 yrs, than a battery lasting 5-6-10 yrs to get the same miles!
I don;t gather most buyers that drive huge amounts of miles a day are buying them!, due to all the down time to charge them
maybe it TESTING, they achieved these 200,000 miles on the batteries!

you say the transition already started and I agree, but its wasn;t started due to the public wanted it, it was started by being pushed by a elected official agenda, if were honest!(and you can say other countries have been using them all you want, they still have not been BIG changes since they came out as expected)
auto makers are just trying to stay alive by making what is being pushed, there all scrambling now to get THERE e vehicle made and for sale!
add in just the lack of actual ICE vehicles for sale, which is also, helping sales of E vehicles
and NOT just due to demand wanting them!

if a million E vehicles hit the roads tomorrow, there would be a cluster of issues with where to charge them all, and even worse support for them in repairs WHEN they happen(all vehicles break down, just like all things if were honest, I have had many cordless tools die and not work right from out of the box NEW to after using)
there have been LEMON"S in auto's so often they came out with the LEMON LAW on them!, just saying

just cause there is a BIG push for e vehicles NOW< doesn;t mean that will last, things can change pretty fast when tech allows it to, or demand changes, or costs change, or AGENDA"S change!
you already admit that what you are getting will be outdated by the time you get it
that to me sounds like a pretty poor way to spend money
as you will be taking a hit on its value, no??
which again, is something a less wealthy person cannot really afford to do(and I am not saying your rich , I have NO clue)
just making a logical observation
people with deeper pockets can gamble with income more, as they can afford to loose more, cause they HAVE more! and if making more than average, they can replace there lost faster or with less effect to there ,lively hood!
SO< yeah, it is honestly a more wealthy person's game right now!, like it or not!
and a ton of WHAT if's there Hoping pan out!
like counting your chickens before them eggs hatch, never a great way to plan IMO!

 

[mrbb]

also, just saying, how many folks that run a heated shield, have got off a sled and forgot they were plugged into the sled??

HUMM< I wonder how many people will back a car out of a garage without un plugging things??, hell my buddy own's a gas station, and you be surprised how many times he has to replace a nozzle that someone drove off with still in the tank filler!

I would HOPE, e vehicles have a safety built in to NOT allow the vehicle to move when charger is plugged in!
Grub, do you know if this is a thing, or, will it be like fuel nozzles, and shield plugs??
only at a 220 volts, things could get a little interesting,

and just a FYI
when I ran 220 to my one shop, for a welder,
NOT all 220 plugs are the same, there are many different styles of 220 plugs on welders and many other things
just as I gather, pending WHAT E vehicle you get, can have different plug types!
so, as things advance, things could change there, logically you'd think OEM"S would stick to a universal plug , but so far as far as I know, there is NONE,
what do you know on this??

 

[whitedust]

EV or Ice opinions are very passionate on this topic. Revolution to EV is political in my view and a democratic slaughter in November will mellow the transition. Technology changes should be market driven at a pace that makes sense to consumers NOT a government mandate that is subsidized. Let transitions happen naturally with support from private industry. Currently OEMs can’t produce enough EVs at competitive prices so give them time to figure out their supply chains and products. The charging stations aren’t available in mass and takes too long to charge. Imo I’ll wait until EV technology is mature and ready for prime time I’m in no hurry don’t need to be. Ice will be available for many years to come and I suspect the EV political climate will change and support a more market driven orderly approach to transitions. Passion is good but recognize it for what it is in the real world.

 

[Hoosier]

In Texas and California right now already they are asking people not to charge their e-vehicles during certain times (such as when it's warm). Say e-vehicles are 2% of all vehicles right now. What would happen if they are 50%?

So from a practical side we don't have the electrical capacity and that's not going to change quickly.

Then from an environmental perspective - look at what it takes to get the battery materials out of the ground. Not to mention the labor conditions for the people in the countries where these materials are plentiful.

Even if someone can afford an e-vehicle they aren't going to be able to keep and maintain a 2nd vehicle for towing or trips.

My opinion is in the not so long-term there will be a better technology - something like hydrogen fuel cells.

 

[Hoosier]

EV or Ice opinions are very passionate on this topic. Revolution to EV is political in my view and a democratic slaughter in November will mellow the transition. Technology changes should be market driven at a pace that makes sense to consumers NOT a government mandate that is subsidized. Let transitions happen naturally with support from private industry. Currently OEMs can’t produce enough EVs at competitive prices so give them time to figure out their supply chains and products. The charging stations aren’t available in mass and takes too long to charge. Imo I’ll wait until EV technology is mature and ready for prime time I’m in no hurry don’t need to be. Ice will be available for many years to come and I suspect the EV political climate will change and support a more market driven orderly approach to transitions. Passion is good but recognize it for what it is in the real world.

Hope you are right about november but the other side is very good at pulling defeat out of the jaws of victory, so to speak.

 

[whitedust]

Hope you are right about november but the other side is very good at pulling defeat out of the jaws of victory, so to speak.

Lol I hear ya! I also agree that hydrogen cell could leap frog both Ice and EV BUT big industry manages to control the fuel supply. I’m definitely open to it.

 

[ddhanna]

lets see, a E vehicle f-150+ a second F 150 ICE motor, that's a chunk of change tied up in vehicles no?
Not really something the AVERAGE person can afford,
so, YES it is a wealthy person game right now
, like it or not
its at least an above avregare income game!
people with deeper pockets can gamble with income more, as they can afford to loose more, cause they HAVE more! and if making more than average, they can replace there lost faster or with less effect to there ,lively hood!
SO< yeah, it is honestly a more wealthy person's game right now!, like it or not!
and a ton of WHAT if's there Hoping pan out!
like counting your chickens before them eggs hatch, never a great way to plan IMO!

Throughout history, technology in early stages has only been accessible to the wealthy. Electricity, automobiles, TVs, refrigerators, you name it. This is nothing new. If you can't afford it now, you'll have to wait until prices come down. That's the way it works.

 

[mrbb]

Throughout history, technology in early stages has only been accessible to the wealthy. Electricity, automobiles, TVs, refrigerators, you name it. This is nothing new. If you can't afford it now, you'll have to wait until prices come down. That's the way it works.

I fully understand this, but that doesn;t change the fact that RIGHT NOW< they are basically ONLY for those with higher income and NOT for everyone
which was my point

and then add in the FACT that the agenda for e vehicles is causing costs of all other vehicles and to be higher
putting more costs on those with less deep pockets!
and all for a item that has no real support as stated!

 

[mrbb]

and how about this
since it seems they will be pushing E vehicles for a while now
and again COSTS??
one cost 90k other about 200K
do you really think there is a 150 k in savings over say 10 yrs ?? I Highly doubt it, and again resale after 10 yrs IF it makes it that long>?>
NOT even in the ball park IMO!

as how many oil changes and up keep costs do you think there are rally are, as in differences between E vehicles and ICE ones??
come on, be honest here folks!

 

[Northstar]

Honda, the only one I was aware of that was dabbling in the hydrogen fuel cell technology has pumped the brakes on developing it in favor of buying the GM battery technology to sell cars. At least until 2040. Unfortunate since I think that technology was way more promising that dumping coal in the power plants.

 

[whitedust]

Honda, the only one I was aware of that was dabbling in the hydrogen fuel cell technology has pumped the brakes on developing it in favor of buying the GM battery technology to sell cars. At least until 2040. Unfortunate since I think that technology was way more promising that dumping coal in the power plants.

Exactly right Toyota has hydrogen cell car now and solves the draw on power plants fills in 2-3 minutes at your local gas station simular to gasoline fill up easily 300 mile range. No green house gases just water vapor. Also excellent fuel for home heating too. Imo hydrogen cell solves a lot of problems and is the ultimate renewable green energy. Lithium batteries and all that dirty mining seems stupid to pursue and hydrogen cell has a much brighter future for society.

 

[dfattack]

What could be more convenient than refueling your vehicle overnight in the comfort of your home at a fraction of the cost? And... I never have the need to go more than 150 miles a day so range is not an issue. Since I always snowmobile from home, I don't need to trailer other than to get the boat to the landing 2 miles away. A Mustang Mach E would do me just fine. And us retirees have not forgotten anything. If you struggle with a 50 hour work week, paying for the house and getting kids to their events, perhaps you made a mistake having kids in the first place. EV technology is no joke and will only increase in market share as enhancements mitigate the obstacles. I suggest you get used to it.
P.S. I have a barn full of gas powered toys so my comments are not coming from a "greenie weenie".

Really?

 

[G]

and how about this
since it seems they will be pushing E vehicles for a while now
and again COSTS??
one cost 90k other about 200K
do you really think there is a 150 k in savings over say 10 yrs ?? I Highly doubt it, and again resale after 10 yrs IF it makes it that long>?>
NOT even in the ball park IMO!

as how many oil changes and up keep costs do you think there are rally are, as in differences between E vehicles and ICE ones??
come on, be honest here folks!

Volkswagen will introduce the 2023 ID4 in October. Built in USA. Starting price $37495.00. Volkswagen has not reached the 200000 vehicle threshold. So the ID4 qualifies for the $7500 federal tax credit. Which means it will cost right around $30000. So there is your cheap electric criossover.

 

[G]

I don't know where you are getting your $200000.00 number unless you are pricing out the Porsche Taycan. Nice car. You would look good in one.

 

[mrbb]

I don't know where you are getting your $200000.00 number unless you are pricing out the Porsche Taycan. Nice car. You would look good in one.

if you watch the video they compare two trucks of equal power
and they gave stated price of each in the video BY the OEM rep that gave the price of each!
the diesel was 90k and the e truck was 200k
thats a 110k difference in price from a diesel to electric
and he DOES say UP keep costs will make them ABOUT equal
YEAH< 110 k in PM's, I call BS! big time!
so that's where I got the 200k number fro, right from the laker in the video!

and the VW model you listed states this

2023 Volkswagen ID.4​

Starting at $38,790​

so<< guess either I am finding a different price than you or something si off some where?
$37495.00. has just a 208 mile range, and
if you're not able to install a level 2 charger at your home it would be best to avoid this model.!

and its a simple plain Jane compact car and there are cheaper ICE one on the market now with a LOT more range!
so why would one want to go to a version of something that does less than most likely what they have mow or can buy!

and according top CAR and DRIVER
The ID.4 is an electric car for the people, but it provides drivers little to get enthused about.

 

[G]

The other car Volkswagen made 'for the people ' sold pretty well.

 

[mrbb]

The other car Volkswagen made 'for the people ' sold pretty well.

I gather you mean the V W beetle ,
but what about there BIG mpg's vehicles?/
as many didn;t sell for crap, even though they got such GREAT MPG"S over other vehicles
or that is until, say, last 15+ yrs or so,
where there diesels are highly sought after , on pre emission diesels that is! and even some later one's!
and don't forget they been making diesel cars that got 50+ MPG since the 80's
but were never looked at or liked much by folks in the USA for decades, due to the negative view man had./have on diesel motors in vehicles!
so just cause they made High MPG vehicles,, well they still didn;t sell a lot of them, or were BIG sellers,
as most Americans's didn't want them, even if they got double the MPG of most other cars in there class!

 

[SledTL]

And what about the people who live in apartments? Do apartments have to supply charging stations too? Next the libs will complain that their rent went up because of it! Let’s also not forget the average person may not tow like many of us on this board, but the average person is also not even in the ballpark of being able to afford current EV prices. I work at a place of 150 employees, and the average vehicle price in the parking lot might be closer to $5k than it is $10k. $5k is what 10-20% of the cost of an EV? These are your average people, they can’t afford Joes pipe dream!!

I hate to say it but new vehicles aren't targeted at those people anyways. Doesn't matter if they are ICE or electric. You and I are likely surrounded by people who aren't the intended targets, but I truly think you are underestimating the size of population that goes from A to B. C'mon, how many thousands paid markups on a vehicle in the past year or two? Those people are the ones buying. You can think this is Joe's pipe dream or accept that companies and economies are global and this is taking place across the world regardless of politics.