i think it did.
Union thugs are at it again
- Thread starter highhertel
- Start date
i think it did.
But Indy, you do that now on JD -- why not get paid for it?
Not bashing, just poking a little fun -- I'm just as guilty of spending plenty of time on here, too!
I was a CNC machinist for many years, and dont recall sitting my butt in front of a computer for 8 hours.
dfattack
Well-known member
Obviously based on my previous posts I'm not pro-union leadership. However in this case, the company should pay the fine (since they are ultimately accountable for the actions of their employees) the union should NOT pay any fine and the employee should be disciplined based on whatever published company policy he or she broke.
I guess....but I think if I were the company and I had to eat the fine, I'd be more than a little peeved. Give him his choice: pay the fine and keep your job, or we pay the fine and you hit the bricks, or at least, face disciplinary action. Union or not. You break the rules (assuming there were rules in place; if not, then it's a different ballgame), you pay the price.
dfattack
Well-known member
Indy, there's nothing wrong with what you suggest. The risk is without question something you need to consider.
But think about this option...what if you were to decide to become a business owner doing whatever it is you have a passion for and of course you will have many hard/long hour days in the early years, but you eventually build an organization that can run itself while you aren't there? This could take decades, but you can still take vacations during this time. As the business/organization grows it may get to the point where you can decide to take a long weekend or even a week...or a month. Your business is still making money while you are out riding due to the fact you have trustworthy employees running it while you are gone. Eventually over time you get to the point (due to your years of hard work) where you can go anytime anywhere for as long as you want. Of course being in this position you can't be gone all the time. That successful organization still needs the guy who built it to oversee it and of course there will be meetings...sometimes lots of meetings. But that's OK. It will be worth it.
Just a thought...you may or may not know anyone in that situation but I wanted to suggest to you it has been done and is being done by some out there who are driven by the vision they have for their lives and how they wanted it to be. I'm not suggesting that anyone who doesn't do this is an underachiever. I know people who are perfectly happy doing what you suggested. No problem. I only say this because I had been exposed to people who had done what I just explained. Because I was exposed to this it allowed me to realize it was possible. Others were already doing it.
Maybe you could call it the American Dream or even the American Dream on steroids. Whatever...it can be done.
Russ, Your thoughts are relavavnt but not legal. Same theory as if one of my employees has a bad day and leaves a wrench in a printing press which will most likely cause about $30,000 in damages when press is fired up. I cannot legally ask them compensation for their "bad day" mistake.
I have no problem with OSHA other than the FACT that they are going to pay for their trip to your facility no matter what. The code is written so deep that NOBODY is 100% compliant with their manuals. My latest visit resulted in 1 fine. The hand rail to the mezzanine was 2" higher than code. $1000 fine reduced to $350 after appeals and much red tape BS. Hate to say it but employee gets fired for lack of procedure. Sends a very clear message to the others!
dfattack
Well-known member
here's a perfect example of why I stated earlier in this thread that many of the reasons unions were beneficial in the early years are no longer valid. There are governmental agencies you can go to in order to file a claim against your employer. In Illinois, it has gone from where the employer is innocent until proven guilty in the late 80's early 90's to now guilty until proven innocent. I employ between 450 and 525 people depending on the time of year. So you can see I have a lot of personnel issues simply due to the amount of employees. From my experience, you could fire the employee but then you could and most likely would have a wrongful termination suit against you, especially if it's due to a huge fine like that. I actually have insurance for this. When you do have a claim you are required to show your policies for hiring and firing. You need it written and have had the employees sign off that they read and understand them. If your policy states you can recover costs associated with fines, then sure make them pay. To sum up, in my experience over the years, the employer is ultimately responsible for the actions of the employees. You can take internal policy action against the employees based on your policies. But even those policies can be challenged by the court once you get into a lawsuit or claim. Many companies have insurance for this kind of situation.
I'll give you a quick example. I had a survey/engineering company hired to located a house on a lot with stakes so we could have the excavator dig the hole and a concrete company install the foundation. It was a 5,800 square foot ranch with 10' foundation walls with re-bar vertically and horizontally every 16" in the wall. They verified the foundation 4 different times. Long story short, the foundation had to come out. They placed it about 3' off from where it was supposed to be. The cost was around $ 225,000 to remove and prepare the site for the 2nd foundation. The survey company had insurance for this exact situation. Insurance paid it. There's no way the employee had to pay this. I'm sure there was disciplinary action against him too. I had meetings with the firms owners. They were apologetic and handled it professionally. It was quite a sight seeing that foundation come out with all that re-bar.
In some industries, yes, that is true that you have to spend money to make money. I was fortunate that my first business was an I.T. business, and required just knowledge. The DJ business took some capital, and I borrowed what the bank would allow. Did I have the best of the best in the beginning? Heck no, but I made do with what I had, and now all of that stuff is retired. I reinvested what I could over the years, and now we have 4 complete systems with all top-notch equipment. Building a business overnight isn't going to happen, but in my opinion if I hadn't started when I was so young, it would have been much tougher... I didn't have a mortgage to pay or huge car payments at 19. I was able to reinvest.
You can do your 8-and-skate (like my buddy says), and just get by if you want to... But if that's the case, you can't hate on people who tried and made it happen.
rocketman356
New member
Got 2 luv it
indy_500
Well-known member
Well, you make the part on a computer and then a cnc makes it for you. I don't see it being very hard, but boy do I love making drawings on cad and inventor.
Well there you have it! Go to the tech, take some CNC classes, and start there. I do I.T. work for several local machine shops. That industry is huge in the Fox Valley. If you are interested in the engineering side of things, that is better yet. Start on the machines, then eventually you can work your way into the office.. Maybe it would be your own office in your own company someday!
dfattack
Well-known member
No problem. That's why we are all here. I wouldn't have know those things either if it wasn't from experience.
i worked hard while in that industry. going to school to further my education and hold a job. now your meaning of "hard" maybe different, but i have worked HARD to get to where i am now, that includes being a CNC machinist.
there is a bit more detail to just having computer make something for you and then cnc make it. thats 25 yrs of experience knowing that. i carry a lot of knowledge in that field, and worked HARD for all of it.
maybe once you start to get into the working force, you can start seeing what it's ALL about.
about the fines
The amounts of the fines I see on here really makes me wonder where they are getting the info from. IF your friend had a company that had a fall protection program and OSHA fine them still then there must have been something else. The fines are hardly ever that much and are usually based on many factors. OSHA fines are very small and hardly ever reach thousands of dollars even after deaths have occured. The EPA and other environmental agencies get much more money for fines.
OSHA wouldn't fine for someone not wearing their PPE. Usually they will consult w/ the employee and explain what is needed.
I am all for small government but I will tell you that any money that gets taken away will not come back to you the tax payer. They will find other programs and groups to give this money to. I have seen so much waste it would make your head spin. The politicians seem to spend our money like water and then blame the public employees for the budget problems. The system is broke and need fixing!!!!
No fines are ever assesed to the employees or unions unless the union is the "employer". Only the employer can be assessed and OSHA works with the employer to correct the issue and help with programs.
Oh and by the way, before I became a state employee I had my own business and did well but I guess I felt I could make a difference. Maybe its time for me to get elected......lol.
The amounts of the fines I see on here really makes me wonder where they are getting the info from. IF your friend had a company that had a fall protection program and OSHA fine them still then there must have been something else. The fines are hardly ever that much and are usually based on many factors. OSHA fines are very small and hardly ever reach thousands of dollars even after deaths have occured. The EPA and other environmental agencies get much more money for fines.
OSHA wouldn't fine for someone not wearing their PPE. Usually they will consult w/ the employee and explain what is needed.
I am all for small government but I will tell you that any money that gets taken away will not come back to you the tax payer. They will find other programs and groups to give this money to. I have seen so much waste it would make your head spin. The politicians seem to spend our money like water and then blame the public employees for the budget problems. The system is broke and need fixing!!!!
No fines are ever assesed to the employees or unions unless the union is the "employer". Only the employer can be assessed and OSHA works with the employer to correct the issue and help with programs.
Oh and by the way, before I became a state employee I had my own business and did well but I guess I felt I could make a difference. Maybe its time for me to get elected......lol.
Last edited:
Bingo.
I will admit I am not in favor of unions. I have family members that are in them, my dad is a retired UW professor, my mom was a teacher, my wife works in our local school district, both of her parents were teachers and her brother works for UW and her sister-in-law is a teacher. So I am familiar with them.
All that being said there is only one person you can count on to get ahead in this world. You work hard and make it happen yourself. Growing up as the son of two educators I was taught the importance of a good education. (I was also taught to be respectful to my elders but thats another topic!) While I attended college I spent my last 2 yrs working full time on 2nd shift as a machine operator in a local injection molding facility. A depressing fact of life came to me while I was working there. the guys on 1st and 3rd shift who ran the same machine as me told me I needed to slow down as I was making them look bad and was working too hard. When I finished college I was then offered a supervisor position with this company. Was this job handed to me because of my college degree? I'm sure that helped but it was also because I had proven I would work harder than anybody else. While I was working as a supervisor I went back to college and got my MBA at night. So I was working 10-11 hr days and then going to school for 3 hrs a night 2-3 nights a week. After finishing my MBA I moved to a Project Manager position, then an Operations Manager position, and now finally a Plant Manager position. None of this was handed to me by an outside organization, I busted my butt to get where I am. So now I guess I am that fat cat, highly paid republican with the new truck (although it's only a F150) that Indy dis likes. But I also work 10-11 hr days, (right now it's Saturday morning and I've been at my desk since 6:30), I travel for work (on my time) I do work at home from time to time, I have sleepless nights worrying about issues, and I shoulder a big responsibility for everybody who works in my plant to help keep it profitable so we all have jobs long into the future.
I guess my point is, I didn't rely on an outside organization to get me where I am or to bargain for me. And I know what it's like to work on the production floor. If you are willing to work hard, harder than everybody else, you don't need a union to take care of you.
Another quick note on unions. My wife works part time as a Para Professional at our kids school, It's a great part time job as she gets summers off and all holidays off with our kids so no need for day care or anything. Unfortunately it is a unionized position (my wife could care less about the union) and the union is battling with the school board right now about their contract. They are complaining because they don't get health insurance. The funny part is they all know there was no insurance when they took the jobs as they are all considered part time jobs. They also complain that other districts pay more for their para professionals. Then go work at other districts.
It's ridiculous, they complain about how other districts, within 15 miles, get more but none of them are willing to go work there.
If you aren't happy with your job or feel you should get paid more, then go find someplace that you will be happy. It's not my job to make you happy, it's my job to give you a clean safe place to work.
All that being said there is only one person you can count on to get ahead in this world. You work hard and make it happen yourself. Growing up as the son of two educators I was taught the importance of a good education. (I was also taught to be respectful to my elders but thats another topic!) While I attended college I spent my last 2 yrs working full time on 2nd shift as a machine operator in a local injection molding facility. A depressing fact of life came to me while I was working there. the guys on 1st and 3rd shift who ran the same machine as me told me I needed to slow down as I was making them look bad and was working too hard. When I finished college I was then offered a supervisor position with this company. Was this job handed to me because of my college degree? I'm sure that helped but it was also because I had proven I would work harder than anybody else. While I was working as a supervisor I went back to college and got my MBA at night. So I was working 10-11 hr days and then going to school for 3 hrs a night 2-3 nights a week. After finishing my MBA I moved to a Project Manager position, then an Operations Manager position, and now finally a Plant Manager position. None of this was handed to me by an outside organization, I busted my butt to get where I am. So now I guess I am that fat cat, highly paid republican with the new truck (although it's only a F150) that Indy dis likes. But I also work 10-11 hr days, (right now it's Saturday morning and I've been at my desk since 6:30), I travel for work (on my time) I do work at home from time to time, I have sleepless nights worrying about issues, and I shoulder a big responsibility for everybody who works in my plant to help keep it profitable so we all have jobs long into the future.
I guess my point is, I didn't rely on an outside organization to get me where I am or to bargain for me. And I know what it's like to work on the production floor. If you are willing to work hard, harder than everybody else, you don't need a union to take care of you.
Another quick note on unions. My wife works part time as a Para Professional at our kids school, It's a great part time job as she gets summers off and all holidays off with our kids so no need for day care or anything. Unfortunately it is a unionized position (my wife could care less about the union) and the union is battling with the school board right now about their contract. They are complaining because they don't get health insurance. The funny part is they all know there was no insurance when they took the jobs as they are all considered part time jobs. They also complain that other districts pay more for their para professionals. Then go work at other districts.
It's ridiculous, they complain about how other districts, within 15 miles, get more but none of them are willing to go work there.
If you aren't happy with your job or feel you should get paid more, then go find someplace that you will be happy. It's not my job to make you happy, it's my job to give you a clean safe place to work.
It's amazing the type of individual that a union breeds. It is definately not a hard working one. I have been told to slow down also, or to not do it at all.
We even have 2 unions, and us truck drivers are not suppose to help the guys in the plant, and the other way around. That's just stupid. We all work for the same company, why not work together. I have seen drivers sit for hours because there is nothing to haul because the plant is down, but will not lift a finger to help anyone else.
I was raised to work hard and I'm not about to change for my union. I would love to see some of the lazy a$$es that I work with have to work for a place without a union protecting them. They wouldn't make it. And I wouldn't feel sorry for them.
We even have 2 unions, and us truck drivers are not suppose to help the guys in the plant, and the other way around. That's just stupid. We all work for the same company, why not work together. I have seen drivers sit for hours because there is nothing to haul because the plant is down, but will not lift a finger to help anyone else.
I was raised to work hard and I'm not about to change for my union. I would love to see some of the lazy a$$es that I work with have to work for a place without a union protecting them. They wouldn't make it. And I wouldn't feel sorry for them.
Elf, nice post. Makes a lot of sense and it sounds like you were raised with a good set of values. If more people in this country lived by your example, we'd probably all be better off.
I've learned much from this thread, from both sides of the aisle. As I've said in previous posts, though I belong to a union I'm neither avidly nor blindly pro-union. I do think there are some who have definitely overstepped their bounds, in some cases. But, I don't believe it's fair to label them all as bad and I do think they have their place, which is this: to help ensure that employees have a clean, safe place in which to work, for a fair wage (note I say "fair" and not "premium"). I don't believe the union should have more power than the employer, but conversely, I don't believe the employer should be able to rule employees with an iron fist. If they do, then the employees should be able to have a voice to speak up for them -- peacefully, not with thuggery. Many of you have stated that your employees have no need for a union because you pay them fairly and treat them well, and that's great, sincerely. But please recognize that not every employer views its personnel the same way you do.
Is it December yet?
I've learned much from this thread, from both sides of the aisle. As I've said in previous posts, though I belong to a union I'm neither avidly nor blindly pro-union. I do think there are some who have definitely overstepped their bounds, in some cases. But, I don't believe it's fair to label them all as bad and I do think they have their place, which is this: to help ensure that employees have a clean, safe place in which to work, for a fair wage (note I say "fair" and not "premium"). I don't believe the union should have more power than the employer, but conversely, I don't believe the employer should be able to rule employees with an iron fist. If they do, then the employees should be able to have a voice to speak up for them -- peacefully, not with thuggery. Many of you have stated that your employees have no need for a union because you pay them fairly and treat them well, and that's great, sincerely. But please recognize that not every employer views its personnel the same way you do.
Is it December yet?