Union thugs are at it again
- Thread starter highhertel
- Start date
rocketman356
New member
We have had to deal with them for years when a couple of the Locals here had mafia ties and they we trying to put our small family business out of business.First day of one project it took five county sheriffs to let us onto our own property cause they was three buicks blocking the entrance full of aholes cleaning thier guns.I won't get into the details here but they did over $350,000 worth of damage.I used to carry a pick handle,shotgun and a .357 24/7 in the truck.They would follow yaa all over town, show up @ ur home when yaa where not there all that fun stuff.All this over a seven employee family business that we choose to build business parks on property we owned.We did every phase of construction with our own equipment.W
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indy_500
Well-known member
haha gee, i wonder! Lets just get rid of all the unions and that will solve all the problems right? That will leave the whole state happy right??? You need both union and non-union. How about we make all the non-unions, union, bet that will make them happy right? wrong. You need both!
Unions have a place and there is a need for them, I agree with that. I would argue that they have overreached, and that is the cause of the current backlash against them.
Indy....what I was trying to say is, there's good about unions and there's bad about unions. There are fair employers and there are unfair employers. There are good employees and there are bad employees. Not all unions and/or union employees are the same. Sorry, but it isn't right to put them -- or employers -- all into the same category. Whatever the reasons for the economic mess we're in, I'm confident there's plenty of blame to share from many different groups -- employees, employers, politicians, the list goes on.
I would concur with that, mostly. I wouldn't say that ALL have overreached, but as the saying goes -- a few bad apples spoil the barrel.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/wisconsin-teachers-earned-average-75-587
The above is probably a biased right-wing news site, but its stats are linked to a Wisconsin govt site. It says the average is just above 75k. That's not money in your pocket, but includes all benefits.
You and I are probably talking apples and oranges in terms of compensation.
Indy-
You have to think of labor as supply and demand. You only get paid the value the market places on you. If the market thinks MBA marketing folk are more valuable than assembly line union workers they will get paid more because they are in demand and the company thinks their services are worth more. This is neither right nor wrong, it is value in the marketplace.
In the 50's and 60's when the country was building its infrastructure and developing consumer products like cars and appliances and housing and furniture, skilled workers were in demand. Unions ensured these workers were adequately compensated for their skills and that they were treatd well.
It is generally believed that unions built the post WWII middle class, enabling the vast blue collar workforce to buy homes, cars, and send their children to college.. In the 80's, unions got greedy, and the quality of many of America's products declined precipitously (think cars) while labor costs skyrocketed. This opened the door to global competition of quality goods at lower prices (like Toyota).
Technology responded, and American manufacturers turned to robots and automation. Now, a car is no longer welded or painted by an American craftsman, it is done by a robot who has no hourly wage, no health insurance, and no work rules. As American manufacturers learned this model the government dropped trade barriers on this continent (NAFTA) and the manufacturers figured they could have robots working in Mexico instead of in Flint.
The unions, in general, failed to realize this (my opinion), and we have now lost the need for 8 million of these workers. So, given the reduced demand for these workers one of the key questions is when will the unions learn to be competitive? It is happening now in some segments (think GM) but the segment that refuses to budge is public sector unions. Why? I can't outsource a teacher to Mexico, nor a snowplow driver to a robot. Yet, many Americans think these unions are way over compensated vs. their other former union bretheren, particularly in the area of benefits and work rules (pensions and tenure, for example). As long as the underlying base of funding (taxpayers) continues to get beat up on health insurance, declining IRAs, and foreclosed homes they will demand their politicians bring public sector compensation in line with the market. If a $40K per year non union plumber is now paying 20% of his health insurance and his neighbor the $40k municipal employee is not, the plumber will demand action from his government.
When any portion of the workforce becomes non-competitive the market will correct it, this is the beginning of the public sector correction. One would hope this correction can happen in a much better way than in the manufacturing segment of our economy where the correction was too little, too late, and destroyed our manufacturing economy.
If any class of worker, union or not, blue collar or white collar, is too expensive the market will correct it.
You have to think of labor as supply and demand. You only get paid the value the market places on you. If the market thinks MBA marketing folk are more valuable than assembly line union workers they will get paid more because they are in demand and the company thinks their services are worth more. This is neither right nor wrong, it is value in the marketplace.
In the 50's and 60's when the country was building its infrastructure and developing consumer products like cars and appliances and housing and furniture, skilled workers were in demand. Unions ensured these workers were adequately compensated for their skills and that they were treatd well.
It is generally believed that unions built the post WWII middle class, enabling the vast blue collar workforce to buy homes, cars, and send their children to college.. In the 80's, unions got greedy, and the quality of many of America's products declined precipitously (think cars) while labor costs skyrocketed. This opened the door to global competition of quality goods at lower prices (like Toyota).
Technology responded, and American manufacturers turned to robots and automation. Now, a car is no longer welded or painted by an American craftsman, it is done by a robot who has no hourly wage, no health insurance, and no work rules. As American manufacturers learned this model the government dropped trade barriers on this continent (NAFTA) and the manufacturers figured they could have robots working in Mexico instead of in Flint.
The unions, in general, failed to realize this (my opinion), and we have now lost the need for 8 million of these workers. So, given the reduced demand for these workers one of the key questions is when will the unions learn to be competitive? It is happening now in some segments (think GM) but the segment that refuses to budge is public sector unions. Why? I can't outsource a teacher to Mexico, nor a snowplow driver to a robot. Yet, many Americans think these unions are way over compensated vs. their other former union bretheren, particularly in the area of benefits and work rules (pensions and tenure, for example). As long as the underlying base of funding (taxpayers) continues to get beat up on health insurance, declining IRAs, and foreclosed homes they will demand their politicians bring public sector compensation in line with the market. If a $40K per year non union plumber is now paying 20% of his health insurance and his neighbor the $40k municipal employee is not, the plumber will demand action from his government.
When any portion of the workforce becomes non-competitive the market will correct it, this is the beginning of the public sector correction. One would hope this correction can happen in a much better way than in the manufacturing segment of our economy where the correction was too little, too late, and destroyed our manufacturing economy.
If any class of worker, union or not, blue collar or white collar, is too expensive the market will correct it.
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I too have had a poor experience with union people. At our small business I had one of my friends that owns a skidsteer working on my parking lot. Pretty soon, members from a local union were down giving us crap about not using union people/equipment. To me that is complete BS. This is america and I should be able to use who I want to move some dirt around on my property.
Not at all what I said. Since there are 8 million fewer manufacturing jobs out there, and about 14 million unemployed people, the supply/ demand curve on public sector jobs is totally different than 5 years ago. A lot of people would take these jobs as non union and be glad to pay part of their health care. The marketplace has changed, and as long as there are 14 million people looking for work supply outstrips demand and price declines.
Your neighbor's job is not worth what it was 5 years ago.
Do I see brainwashing in school here and the rise of another liberal!? Please no!
harvest1121
Well-known member
Its funny how everybody like to bash the white collar employees sitting around. How they never say anything about there union leaders and what they make? I wonder how much the union leader makes I never see him working just in the public saying how they are under paid he never said he was. I have a lot of friends that are in the union. Worked in the car business and saw how the union guys laughing they did not have work but got paid to sit around and be in the game room.
xsledder
Active member
I couldn't have said it better.
Indy, you have just fell into the class warfare hole before you can even vote. Don't get so opinionated at an early age. Wait until you have worked for about twenty years. Besides, what do you want to be when you grow up? And, do you think the job will be there in four to eight years?
X2.... Exactly how I see it as well. Nothing wrong with taking a job with pay scales between X&Y with known benefits. If not enough for you do something else with your life no one is holding you hostage to only 1 type of job. Unreasonable hourly wage demands & thugery will get you nothing because that will result in an noncompetitive environment. Just look at the auto industry to see the results of unions out of control. Market corrections have to happen for good reasons & will be better for everyone in our current era. As time moves on things change & same old same/old does not work in new environments. It is mandatory that government spending has to be within current budget constraints as we can no longer spend money we don't have without taking society down to their knees with unrealistic debt. The Times are changing so IMO get with the program & make the most out of it for yourself.
Personally I am a blue collar worker stuck in a white collar job.
I have a part-time job that is union (no choice) but have a pension(private sector)
I have a full-time job that I sit at a desk 75% of the time. (private sector)
From my experience the union is weak, and I'm a Teamster, the pay raises are about half of what I have ever received in a non-union job, plus the benefits are much less.
I have a part-time job that is union (no choice) but have a pension(private sector)
I have a full-time job that I sit at a desk 75% of the time. (private sector)
From my experience the union is weak, and I'm a Teamster, the pay raises are about half of what I have ever received in a non-union job, plus the benefits are much less.
I, also am a Teamster. I don't feel like I get much for the $60 a month they take from me. I could use that money. They definately protect the useless worker, usually the one with lots of seniority (at least in my case). It's amazing that some people actually think that the company owes them something, because they have worked there so long. Without a union, many guys I work with would be unemployed. But with a union, they are safe.
I have worked in both union and non union environments, the reality is the union will not save your job, they will not decide your wages or benefits either. Ultimately the company makes those decisions and as far as saving your job it is still all about being competitive in todays market which is pretty hard to do when someone says "thats not in my contract"
indy_500
Well-known member
They don't tell us nothing in school. Because "they don't want to sway our opinion"