Union thugs are at it again

indy_500

Well-known member
Indy, you have just fell into the class warfare hole before you can even vote. Don't get so opinionated at an early age. Wait until you have worked for about twenty years. Besides, what do you want to be when you grow up? And, do you think the job will be there in four to eight years?

I will not change my opinion. I'm just sick of republicans making 100k a year, complaining about the economy and blaiming unions and the union workers who make half as much as them. What do they have to complain about anyways? That it costs them too much for fuel to go boating, atving, and snowmobiling? And it cost too much for them to fill up their big ole F-350?

I will shut my mouth before I get in trouble ;)
 

anonomoose

New member
While I agree with DC on most of this, there are a couple things that have tweaked this supply and demand thing.

First of all, remember that over the last 50 years, rightly or wrongly the unions did make a larger middle class than had we not had unions at all. Prior to unionization, there was the haves and the have nots. If you were one of the haves, you did what you wanted with the worker, KNOWING that there were always other workers you could hire in a new york moment. (Hummm...sound familiar, eh?)

Our Supply and Demand was totally contained within the USA...we had no cheap labor to import or countries like China where employees work for $14 a week. We are now competing head on for that price. So okay we build robots that have no real cost to keep going like workers, and that isn't all bad, except each time you employ a robot, you displace a worker who must now find another job. So he retrains and heads for something else, but in my view results in a job that doesn't pay quite as well, or have the benefits that were once there.

This process results in a shrinking middle class.

Now enter the union issue. Unions while taking along lots of bad things like infiltration of thugsmanship, and harboring drug addicted workers, and a host of other issues that are slowly being corrected....also provides a valuable tool for employee in that employers are far less likely to take advantage of workers. Not all that much different from the turn of the 19th century processes.

Most employers have had to compete with union labor businesses and pay union scale wages without all the hassles of having a union. If you were going to do business and hope to retain good talented employees, you had to compete with union scale.

Then exit the union. Employers go back to those same old processes of "gee whiz....if you don't agree to price and wage reductions, and paying you own health, I will be forced to shut down and take my operation to India, or timbucktoo...." so the employee gives in, having no union to collectively bargain, and the competition in that industry looks over his should and says..."hey, if he can do it I should be doing it too...." and so he whacks away at his employees and gets 5% more than his competition got, and so it goes....

No unions means no way to stop this because hey....there are people standing in line who would work for half that wage. While I see some benefit for reigning in exorbitant and outlandish wages, often those examples being the automotive sector where workers with zero education were making 100k per year in income and benefits which was a lot, but too much to pay and reflected in the cost of the goods which we had little choice but to pay. we loose some good paying jobs that now will have to settle for working two jobs at McDonalds, and cleaning offices at night. This employee will now NOT be buying a shiny new dodge, or that nice 4 bedroom house, or that big screen tv, cause he can't afford that. Multiply this process by hundreds of workers a day, and you have present day processes.

Now we have importation of cheaper stuff. Still in this transitioning world, we have a middle class that can't afford to buy the things that only a decade ago, they could. Meanwhile those who are the haves will have NO trouble socking it to the remaining employees, and pushing profits to not just 1/3 or 1/2 but to new heights that include 1000% profit margins. We see this greed in action today...and it will escalate significantly.

So remember that even if you never belonged to a union, the wages you now enjoy are almost certainly the results of collective bargaining that the bulk of YOUR industry had to negotiate, and as more and more employers rationalize bigger profit margins WILL exploit your position and eventually you will find an escort waiting for you at your desk one day and then you will feel the bitter pill of unemployment and how this transitioning of the haves...and the have nots.

One more point....I do NOT agree with collective bargaining for PUBLIC employees. That is a wholly different area of employment, and if you work for the government, and I (the tax payer) am paying your wages, those wages better be in total sync with the private sector or you can grab your hat on the way out and join the ranks of the unemployed. YOU give up that right to organize when you take a STATE job. That job should not be exploited, but it should float with the rest of the private sector and that is that.

While there are lots of folks that have a bad taste in their mouths about actual head on confrontations with unions, anyone who thinks that unions have NO place in the work force either have zero historical education, or they are livng a charmed life. DC is right....everything equalizes, over time and we can look forward to our grandkids either being in the have it category, or the live paycheck to paycheck category....there will be no in between.
 

rocketman356

New member
i will not change my opinion. I'm just sick of republicans making 100k a year, complaining about the economy and blaiming unions and the union workers who make half as much as them. What do they have to complain about anyways? That it costs them too much for fuel to go boating, atving, and snowmobiling? And it cost too much for them to fill up their big ole f-350?

I will shut my mouth before i get in trouble ;)
lol
 

jd

Administrator
Staff member
xsledder-

Don't you remember what happened late last week? Indy turned the big 16. He has now seen it all, done it all and know's it all.

Proving it in every post he makes.

"i will not change my opinion"

Just something to chew on for a while Indy... A definition of intelligence is the ability of an organism to adapt to a changing environment.

-John
 

indy_500

Well-known member
xsledder-

Don't you remember what happened late last week? Indy turned the big 16. He has now seen it all, done it all and know's it all.

Proving it in every post he makes.

"i will not change my opinion"

Just something to chew on for a while Indy... A definition of intelligence is the ability of an organism to adapt to a changing environment.

-John

That's right, Indy knows all :)
 

srt20

Active member
$60 a month dues??? wow must be nice. My brother paid over $7000 in union dues last year. I just got outta a union 2 months ago. They did nothing but collect dues, and bully the companies into giving more $$$. We had at least $20 per hour in raises in the last 10 years. How many on here have gotten that? And were did it get you if you did? We now have more people laid off than ever before. Priced ourselves right outta the market. But you still got pay per capita union dues even if your laid off. The International has to get their money, so they can give it to the dems. They also file lawsuit after lawsuit against non-union companies, to either bully them into joining the union, so we can monopoilze the market, or make them bankrupt and go outta business. They go to where the non-union guys are working and try to get them to join the union.

And dont give me no BS about working conditions......EVER HEAR OF OSHA????

Unions got to greedy, and now the price will be payed. Plain and simple. It started in the UAW years ago, and has finally gotten to the state unions.


Funniest thing is, most union workers I have worked with or know would vote straight-up Republican, if it wasnt for the union. Democrats help unions, but to most union guys I know, thats all the dems are good for.
 

knewton66

New member
whats the old saying....children should be seen and not heard.....lol.......sounds like brainwashing from listening to parents to me
 

srt20

Active member
PS. ever wonder why you electric bill is so much??? You guessed it, the power plants in WI have a agreement with the unions. All work done there is union.
 

windingtrailgal

Active member
I'd weigh in, but dcs and moose have said about all that needs to be said and they and many others have said it well. (but since it's gonna get pulled REAL soon anyway because somebody's gonna cross that line...???...

Indy, you don't need to change your opinion but there are some really good points being made in here that are coming from some folks who have been around the block a time or two. I remember thinking that unions protected the common working man from what I learned in school - life experience has taught me different. And you may think that your teachers don't teach you anything with their own opinions - and let's assume for a second they can leave their thoughts about the fact that they are union members out of the classroom - the textbooks are written to praise the efforts of the unions such as they were when they were formed and founded 100 years ago.

I have teachers at my kid's grade school that are completely useless that make 89k per year (OK, 9 mos). At my son's middle school, some teachers are making over 100k per year. I don't have a problem with the majority of the salaries that these teachers are making. I DO have a problem with the fact that they can't be held to standards and fired because they are tenured and their union contracts.

I have a problem with the union that our family HVAC shop belonged to (sheet metal.) Grandpa started the shop in '46 and was a proud union guy with a good union shop for over 40 years, his son took it over and maintained the union shop status until he retired in '98. The union paid back $.90 of grandpa's pension for every dollar he put in because of some loophole they found - he didn't bother to fight it because he knew there was no point. I have a problem that they claim to represent the common worker guy and that their offices are in a high rise on the gold coast - where the rent per month is more than we make per year!

Cindy
 
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While I agree with DC
Our Supply and Demand was totally contained within the USA...we had no cheap labor to import or countries like China where employees work for $14 a week. We are now competing head on for that price. So okay we build robots that have no real cost to keep going like workers, and that isn't all bad, except each time you employ a robot, you displace a worker who must now find another job. So he retrains and heads for something else, but in my view results in a job that doesn't pay quite as well, or have the benefits that were once there.

This process results in a shrinking middle class.

Now enter the union issue. Unions while taking along lots of bad things like infiltration of thugsmanship, and harboring drug addicted workers, and a host of other issues that are slowly being corrected....also provides a valuable tool for employee in that employers are far less likely to take advantage of workers. Not all that much different from the turn of the 19th century processes.

Most employers have had to compete with union labor businesses and pay union scale wages without all the hassles of having a union. If you were going to do business and hope to retain good talented employees, you had to compete with union scale.

Then exit the union. Employers go back to those same old processes of "gee whiz....if you don't agree to price and wage reductions, and paying you own health, I will be forced to shut down and take my operation to India, or timbucktoo...." so the employee gives in, having no union to collectively bargain, and the competition in that industry looks over his should and says..."hey, if he can do it I should be doing it too...." and so he whacks away at his employees and gets 5% more than his competition got, and so it goes....

No unions means no way to stop this because hey....there are people standing in line who would work for half that wage. While I see some benefit for reigning in exorbitant and outlandish wages, often those examples being the automotive sector where workers with zero education were making 100k per year in income and benefits which was a lot, but too much to pay and reflected in the cost of the goods which we had little choice but to pay. we loose some good paying jobs that now will have to settle for working two jobs at McDonalds, and cleaning offices at night. This employee will now NOT be buying a shiny new dodge, or that nice 4 bedroom house, or that big screen tv, cause he can't afford that. Multiply this process by hundreds of workers a day, and you have present day processes.

Now we have importation of cheaper stuff. Still in this transitioning world, we have a middle class that can't afford to buy the things that only a decade ago, they could. Meanwhile those who are the haves will have NO trouble socking it to the remaining employees, and pushing profits to not just 1/3 or 1/2 but to new heights that include 1000% profit margins. We see this greed in action today...and it will escalate significantly.

So remember that even if you never belonged to a union, the wages you now enjoy are almost certainly the results of collective bargaining that the bulk of YOUR industry had to negotiate, and as more and more employers rationalize bigger profit margins WILL exploit your position and eventually you will find an escort waiting for you at your desk one day and then you will feel the bitter pill of unemployment and how this transitioning of the haves...and the have nots.

One more point....I do NOT agree with collective bargaining for PUBLIC employees. That is a wholly different area of employment, and if you work for the government, and I (the tax payer) am paying your wages, those wages better be in total sync with the private sector or you can grab your hat on the way out and join the ranks of the unemployed. YOU give up that right to organize when you take a STATE job. That job should not be exploited, but it should float with the rest of the private sector and that is that.

While there are lots of folks that have a bad taste in their mouths about actual head on confrontations with unions, anyone who thinks that unions have NO place in the work force either have zero historical education, or they are livng a charmed life. DC is right....everything equalizes, over time and we can look forward to our grandkids either being in the have it category, or the live paycheck to paycheck category....there will be no in between.

Well said ..All unions arent bad im a Trade Union Local 73 Sheetmetal Worker (14 years)out of chitown .I bust my *** everyday to keep my job.If I dont preform my employer will lay me off and the union wont protect me at all!!!!As a result i dont have a job!!!! Trade unions arent like public unions Teachers,Police ,and Fire ect we in the trades are not protected from losing our jobs at any point .You cannot stereo type all unions as being bad my .02 UNION YES
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am not a union member, and don't support unions. I also don't beat into my daughters head my thoughts on the matter.
 

fatdaddy

Member
Indy,

not to pick on you but didn't the unions build all the products to go boating, atving, and snowmobiling? I know my two Poo's are built by union members so that the rich can buy them. Besides I like having money, I don't want it any other way.

P.S I think Citgo is union you might want to switch to that oil.
 

ezra

Well-known member
So start naming me government employees that sit in cubicles...

90% of ascfme workers and yes they are most over 70K a yr in MN .a teacher may start out at 40k but add Benny's over 50k then add a few yrs to the job well over 60k now add continuing ed well over 70k. the pension is not eaven counted into that number start adding 10 to 20 yrs of collecting a check with out working quit working making 75k a yr collect 75k for 15 more yrs that is $1125000 not bad divide that in to 30yrs that is another 37500 a yr.so a teacher making lets just average out to 55k over 30 yrs is making more like 92500 a yr before med and dental for working less than 10 mo a yr.not to shabby.it is painfully obvious where your family stands I just hope you have the chance to own a business some day and then I really hope the guys who work for you want to Union so you can live the dream.BTW wish I was getting paper cuts insted of slipped disks gun nails in the hand etc etc
 

dfattack

Well-known member
P.S I think Citgo is union you might want to switch to that oil.

Citgo is owned by Hugo Chavez...you don't want to do that.

Indy, do you really need other people to take care of you? Why not take care of yourself? That's what this country is about.

Chicago "quietly" passed an ordinance/law last July allowing for non-union workers to help set up for conventions since they were losing so much convention business/income to other cities. I read where it cost over $2,500 to plug in one computer for a show and involved three different unions. A company wasn't even allowed to carry their own PC into the building and plug it in.

Research how and when unions and the communist party were first formed. You will be shocked at the similarities. I learned about this years after my encounters with unions at my business. I told the BA that his tactics sounded like communism to me. I was younger and didn't understand how unions operated.

People don't need unions to take care of them. You need to take care of yourself. There are so many laws on the books now a business owner would have a very hard time taking advantage of an employee these days compared to years ago.
 

Hoosier

Well-known member
Do I see brainwashing in school here and the rise of another liberal!? Please no!

I think Indy has too much of an issue with the EPA and the fact that the EPA has eliminated carbs in sleds for him to be a liberal. I can't see any way Indy would support the democrats in the EPA that are responsible for a large part of the recent run-up in sled prices! Think about how many nonrepublicans could buy newer sleds if the epa didn't make them so expensive!
 
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heckler56

Active member
So when you get hurt on the job, it's a good thing to just let the company take advantage of you? No that's what the union's for. Wait, you business guys don't get hurt, you sit in cubicles :p Yes, I went there... OMG I got a paper cut!!!

Little fact of life. My brother lost one hand and most of his other one in 1986 thanks to some moron walking by the machine he was in and turning it on. The UAW got my brother absolutely nothing and he has been fully disabled since. All he could get was the union rate for a hand and a half...... Early 30's and will never work again and all he got was $200K... BS in book no matter what you say.

And, your union fees go to the big guys at the top sitting in their offices with legions of cubicles, all overhead paid by union workers.

I like the fact that I can prove myself and earn more than the person next to me. If I do not perform, then I do not expect to receive that bonus.
 

elf

Well-known member
Indy,

not to pick on you but didn't the unions build all the products to go boating, atving, and snowmobiling? I know my two Poo's are built by union members so that the rich can buy them. Besides I like having money, I don't want it any other way.

P.S I think Citgo is union you might want to switch to that oil.

Actually, unless something has changed at Polaris since I worked there they have always been non union. Had a few organizing attempts but failed. If they were union built, even the rich couldn't afford the dang things!
 

harvest1121

Well-known member
Where were all the union protesters when the government shut down the Union oil workers? They all lost there job from a democrat I guess Obama did not give the marching orders to help there so called brothers that lost there jobs. We could not get help with the oil spill because Obama would not let in help that was not union.
 

tomk

New member
How much do you think the average teacher in your state makes, benefits included? I would be you a new Rush it's more than 75k!!! Do the math on what this is per hour. You won't find a union person making 40k per year when benefits are included, at least once they are up the scale.

your right teachers get paid way too much, this is my 3rd year teaching and I make 33,355 a year. way too much, oh and my wife the nurse she is in a union and she makes way too much too. the police liaison officer at school makes way too much 40,000.


the highest paid teacher in our district with 20+yrs of service and a PhD still can only make 65k. dont doctors with PhDs dont even make that much :)

this guys says it pretty well, really putting us overpaid slackers in our place

"Are you sick of high paid teachers? Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - baby sit! We can get that for less than minimum wage.



That’s right. Let’s give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM

with 45 min. off for lunch and plan — that equals 6 1/2 hours).



Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children.



Now how many do they teach in day…maybe 30? So that’s $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.



LET’S SEE…. That’s $585 X 180= $105,300 peryear. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).



What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children

X 180 days = $280,800 per year.



Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!



The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days = $277.77/per day/30 students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your

kids!)"


oh yea thanks for the support indy!
 
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catalac

Active member
Now that there was a good post! I'm all for the teachers (sitters), nurses, firemen and women, and police! Union or non, who gives a s!!! They deserve good pay!!!
 
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