10-13 MI Snowmobile Fatalities report

whitedust

Well-known member
I have spent most of my life looking at and evaluating data. I found one thing the end number in data is not the answer.... You must know and evaluate how the data was gathered and what effected the data. If you are willing to use data to your advantage you are cheating the outcome! The DNR data is good but not the answer in itself!

FINALLY someone who understands we just have a few bricks of data not nearly enough to be conclusive to build a wall or come to any conclusions 1 way or the other. The DNR & MSA is not done with signage & the program will evolve as well.... We can all count on 1 constant & that is change. To me be open minded & look to the center to get it right as both sides have good points to consider. :)
 
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lenny

Guest
Firecat, I said I have no problem with opinion. It's in text and a fact so all you have said in your last 3 post is void because you didn't even read my post. 3 more posts with nothing to advance the debate. The majority of the people who posted their experience on this board said it was not a problem, some even said it slowed them down. Very few if any said the less signage posed a problem for them. This is a form of information that allows us to examine what the effects the action has produced. It's not made up, it's real and you cannot argue it. You don't offer real information except personal displeasure which gets us no where. I mean go ahead and keep up with the same because you are compelled to do so, it just does not contribute to a better understanding. The forum is a good place for individuals to debate, complain, speculate and your preference is the later two.

Many of you guys who initially said this was gonna be a disaster were mistaken. It has slowed some down which is contributing to a safer trail. The death toll has not increased as a result of less signage. You yourself said you make decisions where to ride based on factors and that included signage. We have less signs so why would you put yourself at risk to ride here when you adamantly and opposed to the new signage.
 
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lenny

Guest
FINALLY someone who understands we just have a few bricks of data not nearly enough to be conclusive to build a wall or come to any conclusions 1 way or the other. The DNR & MSA is not done with signage & the program will evolve as well.... We can all count on 1 constant & that is change. To me be open minded & look to the center to get it right as both sides have good points to consider. :)


it's nice for you to say we are inconclusive but at the same time you do not acknowledge numerous experiences on the trail. It may be a local area we are receiving information on the signage but the overwhelming majority who have posted have not been affected by less signs, some have slowed down, deaths compared to days of open trail have not increased but you fail to allow this info to back up the policy. It would be different if we had somewhat equal reaction to the signage but we don't and yet you take the liberty to play it down and discount what we do have. It's not even close to a wash. So far it is a overwhelming positive reaction and little negative. If you believe I am not open minded that is a ridiculous statement because I embrace all the info concerning the policy and at the same time I exclude opinion form affecting the available info when have received. I have also stated we need more time to be conclusive, you can find that in my posts. We don't have adequate info to determine accurately the outcome but we do have info to consider in the matter, I have sain nothing otherwise.

Whitedust, you have stated your displeasure with MI policy on signage, seems to me you are biased in how you interpret this at this point.
 

whitedust

Well-known member
it's nice for you to say we are inconclusive but at the same time you do not acknowledge numerous experiences on the trail. It may be a local area we are receiving information on the signage but the overwhelming majority who have posted have not been affected by less signs, some have slowed down, deaths compared to days of open trail have not increased but you fail to allow this info to back up the policy. It would be different if we had somewhat equal reaction to the signage but we don't and yet you take the liberty to play it down and discount what we do have. It's not even close to a wash. So far it is a overwhelming positive reaction and little negative. If you believe I am not open minded that is a ridiculous statement because I embrace all the info concerning the policy and at the same time I exclude opinion form affecting the available info when have received. I have also stated we need more time to be conclusive, you can find that in my posts. We don't have adequate info to determine accurately the outcome but we do have info to consider in the matter, I have sain nothing otherwise.

Whitedust, you have stated your displeasure with MI policy on signage, seems to me you are biased in how you interpret this at this point.

I'm not an expert on the matter so waiting for the experts to weigh in before I have a final opinion just as simple as that. I never said you were closed minded or open minded those are your words not mine. Counting posts on websites that are negative or positive is subjective & your choice nothing more & nothing less. People can think whatever they want on the topic fine with me let the information flow is my preference to me no right or wrong in signage & has been my theme as things evolve. When the new MI signage program was released we all had concerns & we expressed those concerns & those concerns have not been eliminated as more time is needed to examine the data by experts. That ole square peg will never fit in the ole round hole no matter how hard one pounds on it. This much I do know.lol:)
 
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lenny

Guest
I'm not an expert on the matter so waiting for the experts to weigh in before I have a final opinion just as simple as that. I never said you were closed minded or open minded those are your words not mine. Counting posts on websites that are negative or positive is subjective & your choice nothing more & nothing less. People can think whatever they want on the topic fine with me let the information flow is my preference to me no right or wrong in signage & has been my theme as things evolve. When the new MI signage program was released we all had concerns & we expressed those concerns & those concerns have not been eliminated as more time is needed to examine the data by experts. That ole square peg will never fit in the ole round hole no matter how hard one pounds on it. This much I do know.lol:)

with all due respect, Are you saying we need to be an expert in interpreting gathered info? You really have a way a sugar coating things. We have 2 threads on this topic: UP signage revisited and MI fatality report. Both threads have a select few who strongly oppose the new policy. The new policy was bashed from the beginning and strong words were used. Some have blamed the less signage in more fatalities. You yourself always jump on your soapbox about giving adequate time to come to conclusion, saying no right or wrong, doesn't matter to you yet you are perfectly fine sitting back ignoring those who immediately blame the signs for fatalities. You post generic statements like you are trying to keep the peace which is good but you do it mainly in your bias. You said nothing about right or wrong, adequate time to conclude when the few here blame signs for death which is an severely premature radical statement. Where were you than? I know where you were, just sitting back silent because it is more in line with your reasoning and now when I or someone use the available info to support our position here you are discounting it. Go back and look at your posts for yourself.

Before you have a final opinion? You have clearly demonstrated your opinion and it here for the record. Counting post or interpreting experiences is factual. It will help determine the legitimacy of the policy because the policy was implemented to produce a safer trail and riders stating there experience demonstrates their changes, if there are changes in riding behaviors, just one element in the effectiveness of less signage. It just seems you are trying to cover a few bases protecting yourself.

It's no secret I am defending the new policy and that started out as opinion. A seasons worth of time has passed and that has produced some valuable information. You claim is subjective and basically exclude it, like a few others do and it's clear bias is working hard. Remember you said this: "I would not get too comfortable with the new MI sign policy. WI DNR interviewed MI riders along the UP & Vilas County border & MI riders had nothing but positive comments regarding Vials County trails compared to MI trails. The WI DNR statement was very broad but I'm sure trail signage was part of the positive Vilas trail experience. It is the silent majority that makes these choices & spends their income where the experience is best in their opinion."

"As far as trail signage I see 2 states WI & MI going in opposite directions as far as trail signage. WI Vilas County very detailed in their trail signage & even added solar powered trail signs on trail 45 north of Eagle River to remind people to ride safe & stay sober. In Vilas every trail twist, turn, bridge, big bumps,stop signs you name it it has signage. I don't view this as clutter in anyway plenty of trees on intimate trails & signs enhance my riding experience. Vilas also wants to widen trails to 16 feet for safer groomer & snowmobile passing. On the other hand MI says they want to reduce sign clutter, sign trails only where sharp turns, lose bridge ahead & other signs to make riders slow down & not ride by signs. For me I ride by rhythm take all trail info in & just ride many times on autopilot since I know the trails in both states so not many surprises for me. So IMO only it is more of a newbie convenience to have detailed trail signage in the area they choose to ride. I rode further south this year in WI on trails I have not ridden before & the trail signage was very helpful to keep me safe & going in the correct direction"

How did you eliminate the motive for less signage, safer trails and more consistency? You exaggerate the clutter and exclude the safe and consistency which was why the policy was implemented! BIAS!!!!!!!! ?

 
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whitedust

Well-known member
with all due respect, Are you saying we need to be an expert in interpreting gathered info? You really have a way a sugar coating things. We have 2 threads on this topic: UP signage revisited and MI fatality report. Both threads have a select few who strongly oppose the new policy. The new policy was bashed from the beginning and strong words were used. Some have blamed the less signage in more fatalities. You yourself always jump on your soapbox about giving adequate time to come to conclusion, saying no right or wrong, doesn't matter to you yet you are perfectly fine sitting back ignoring those who immediately blame the signs for fatalities. You post generic statements like you are trying to keep the peace which is good but you do it mainly in your bias. You said nothing about right or wrong, adequate time to conclude when the few here blame signs for death which is an severely premature radical statement. Where were you than? I know where you were, just sitting back silent because it is more in line with your reasoning and now when I or someone use the available info to support our position here you are discounting it. Go back and look at your posts for yourself.

Before you have a final opinion? You have clearly demonstrated your opinion and it here for the record. Counting post or interpreting experiences is factual. It will help determine the legitimacy of the policy because the policy was implemented to produce a safer trail and riders stating there experience demonstrates their changes, if there are changes in riding behaviors, just one element in the effectiveness of less signage. It just seems you are trying to cover a few bases protecting yourself.

It's no secret I am defending the new policy and that started out as opinion. A seasons worth of time has passed and that has produced some valuable information. You claim is subjective and basically exclude it, like a few others do and it's clear bias is working hard. Remember you said this: "I would not get too comfortable with the new MI sign policy. WI DNR interviewed MI riders along the UP & Vilas County border & MI riders had nothing but positive comments regarding Vials County trails compared to MI trails. The WI DNR statement was very broad but I'm sure trail signage was part of the positive Vilas trail experience. It is the silent majority that makes these choices & spends their income where the experience is best in their opinion."

"As far as trail signage I see 2 states WI & MI going in opposite directions as far as trail signage. WI Vilas County very detailed in their trail signage & even added solar powered trail signs on trail 45 north of Eagle River to remind people to ride safe & stay sober. In Vilas every trail twist, turn, bridge, big bumps,stop signs you name it it has signage. I don't view this as clutter in anyway plenty of trees on intimate trails & signs enhance my riding experience. Vilas also wants to widen trails to 16 feet for safer groomer & snowmobile passing. On the other hand MI says they want to reduce sign clutter, sign trails only where sharp turns, lose bridge ahead & other signs to make riders slow down & not ride by signs. For me I ride by rhythm take all trail info in & just ride many times on autopilot since I know the trails in both states so not many surprises for me. So IMO only it is more of a newbie convenience to have detailed trail signage in the area they choose to ride. I rode further south this year in WI on trails I have not ridden before & the trail signage was very helpful to keep me safe & going in the correct direction"

How did you eliminate the motive for less signage, safer trails and more consistency? You exaggerate the clutter and exclude the safe and consistency which was why the policy was implemented! BIAS!!!!!!!! ?


Lenny too repetitive & too many words for me bud like I said that old square peg not going in that round hole no matter how hard one pounds on it! :) Knock yourself out with whatever info you want to post just fine with me have at it you are not changing my mind with same old same old position nothing new here.
 
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lenny

Guest
Lenny too repetitive & too many words for me bud like I said that old square peg not going in that round hole no matter how hard one pounds on it! :) Knock yourself out with whatever info you want to post just fine with me have at it you are not changing my mind with same old same old position nothing new here.

now that there is funny, to many words,,,heard it all now
 

jamiedesmet

New member

russholio

Well-known member
Shocked on the average age of the deceased riders. Before I opened the file I figured for sure would be mostly under 40 but was surprised that most were over 50. Thought about it and wondered is it that riders 45 and under are not involved in the accidents or that younger riders have adopted safety gear (i.e. Tek-Vest, snell approved helmets, etc)?

I too noticed that, and it seems unusual compared to previous years. I have no idea why, I can't even offer a speculation. I sure hope that whoever evaluates the data also notices it and can offer some reasoning.
 

russholio

Well-known member
understood! Let me ask you this, do you ride with the mindset that the idea is bad and you are looking for discrepancies in the signage or are you riding the trail like normally and finding that these sign caused you some inconvenience or other mishap. Have you personally missed a corner? Are people riding to fast to miss a corner? Still at a loss how lack of sign can trump an ability to adjust to new conditions? No signs means we die?

5 years ago the big problem was over signage,,,, do you remember all the complaints and controversy? 3 signs in a corner, arrows for slight bends. Honestly, all you are missing now that were useful are the slight corners, bridge, although the bridges do have reflectors on them and you can see them coming up.

Do you agree that a slower speed at times will allow better decisions and prevent bad things from happening. This may not be what many call the ideal approach but it does require more from those who operate a sled and that is something good for the operator. Take the responsibility seriously and protect yourself with your own actions. No more passing the buck and blaming other. Russ, I am speaking in general on the topic now, not implying you need a lesson.

Lenny, I will be happy to respond to this as you pose some good questions. I know you are speaking in general and are not implying that I need lessons; I didn't take it that way. But it will have to come tomorrow; I was out of town all weekend and just got back from my 10:00 hockey game, so I'm about ready to cop some ZZZZ's!
 

Firecatguy

New member
No, he isn't.

thanks Wayne...

fcat is a troll

why cuz i dont agree with Lenny?

i think its finally over...maybe:)

I dought it I am out of here as this is a waste of time.....I sure hope they get it right as a LIFE is On the line here...

1 death due to bad judgement and NO SIGN is one too many, its sad that a state would even try this!! but thats how I feel and sorry lenny no matter how much you say it so I belive over time you will see diffrent. time will tell kinda like the price increase on trail passes.....

to me it looks like the monkeys are running the circus!!!
 

Joann T

New member
I have been reading the posts and have something to add to this discussion. It seems as though opinion is split regarding the State's removal of signs, especially curve signs. In the 08/09 year there were 23 snowmobile fatalities with 3 being failed to negotiate a curve and struck tree. In the 09/10 year, 23 deaths with 2 being because of curve. In the 10/11 year, the count was 13 - 1. The 11/12 year, the count was 16 - 1. This year there has been 22 fatalities and 9 of these fatalities were failure to negotiate a curve and struck a tree. Why do I know this? Because my 49 year old brother was one of them. Speed was not a factor, neither was alcohol. They were on a road that was part of a main trail. The road is straight except for one area that curves around a gully. If there had been a curve sign, would this have happened? Know one will ever know that. But one death is too many and in this case, nine. Eight other families out there are going through what my family is going through.

Any rational person has to see that there has obviously been a correlation between the deaths on curves and the lack of signage. It is easy to debate this matter when the statistics are only that, statistics. But when those statistics touch your life, it is a whole different thing. That the State has done this is very negligent on their part. Putting back those signs will not bring back the nine people who lost their lives possibly due to the removal of those signs.
 

Firecatguy

New member
I have been reading the posts and have something to add to this discussion. It seems as though opinion is split regarding the State's removal of signs, especially curve signs. In the 08/09 year there were 23 snowmobile fatalities with 3 being failed to negotiate a curve and struck tree. In the 09/10 year, 23 deaths with 2 being because of curve. In the 10/11 year, the count was 13 - 1. The 11/12 year, the count was 16 - 1. This year there has been 22 fatalities and 9 of these fatalities were failure to negotiate a curve and struck a tree. Why do I know this? Because my 49 year old brother was one of them. Speed was not a factor, neither was alcohol. They were on a road that was part of a main trail. The road is straight except for one area that curves around a gully. If there had been a curve sign, would this have happened? Know one will ever know that. But one death is too many and in this case, nine. Eight other families out there are going through what my family is going through.

Any rational person has to see that there has obviously been a correlation between the deaths on curves and the lack of signage. It is easy to debate this matter when the statistics are only that, statistics. But when those statistics touch your life, it is a whole different thing. That the State has done this is very negligent on their part. Putting back those signs will not bring back the nine people who lost their lives possibly due to the removal of those signs.

I am sorry about your Brother sad deal....1 death is too many!!! I belive that we are trying to bring death toll down thats why Logic says more signs not less.....again very sorry about your brother....
 

polarisrider1

New member
I am sorry about your Brother sad deal....1 death is too many!!! I belive that we are trying to bring death toll down thats why Logic says more signs not less.....again very sorry about your brother....

Pat, logic also says, Helmets save lives. But again that topic had been whipped to death. Oh, nothing wrong with being a troll. Lol.
 
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lenny

Guest
I have been reading the posts and have something to add to this discussion. It seems as though opinion is split regarding the State's removal of signs, especially curve signs. In the 08/09 year there were 23 snowmobile fatalities with 3 being failed to negotiate a curve and struck tree. In the 09/10 year, 23 deaths with 2 being because of curve. In the 10/11 year, the count was 13 - 1. The 11/12 year, the count was 16 - 1. This year there has been 22 fatalities and 9 of these fatalities were failure to negotiate a curve and struck a tree. Why do I know this? Because my 49 year old brother was one of them. Speed was not a factor, neither was alcohol. They were on a road that was part of a main trail. The road is straight except for one area that curves around a gully. If there had been a curve sign, would this have happened? Know one will ever know that. But one death is too many and in this case, nine. Eight other families out there are going through what my family is going through.

Any rational person has to see that there has obviously been a correlation between the deaths on curves and the lack of signage. It is easy to debate this matter when the statistics are only that, statistics. But when those statistics touch your life, it is a whole different thing. That the State has done this is very negligent on their part. Putting back those signs will not bring back the nine people who lost their lives possibly due to the removal of those signs.

I too am very sorry to hear of your loss of your brother. With all due respect, I have just looked over the fatality reports and see 3 deaths associated with actual designated trails and curves, seems in line with the average when more signs were present.
 
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