Union thugs are at it again

cat_man_mike

New member
Sure Mike - I do understand your point...but (and there's always a but monkey) there are also a lot of companies out there that don't get involved in snowmobiling or the politics of it at all, to use your example, and I don't boycott them because they don't have a sign in their window saying we support snowmobiler's causes...

We were a union shop for 56 years...we aren't anymore. It doesn't make us anti-union, it doesn't make us pro-union. It just didn't work out so well for the grand-patriach of our business and it was a little too pricey for us to keep it union considering we are just a small mom & pop outfit. Because we are primarily a HVAC shop, big daddy works with union guys all the time because there is no specific HVAC union here in Chi-town. He's not considered a bad guy for this. He would never THINK of touching the tin on those jobs if there are union sheet metal workers there - it's a respect issue...

This thread has over 200 posts now. I can't possibly remember who said what...but I know that I basically said is there's a lot of grey here - not pro/not anti any one particular union. Not pro/anti any one particular individual within any union. Some of the tactics? I do indeed have a problem with. And the wording of that letter is something I do have a problem with.

(Why do I keep on coming back to this thread?? :confused:) (and now I feel self conscious about using smiley faces and what not so ya'll don't think I'm trying to be an a-hole?!?!)

wtg

There is a differance between anti union and non union. Like you said, in your specific situation, you are not anti union, it just did not work out for you. People have to put food on the table and if you can put more on being a non union company, then that is your decision and more power to you. You are not trying to dystroy the union or hurt union members like the current situation in WI. They used the current budget situation as a cloak to eliminate public unions as directed by Koch through his puppets. This was an attack and when attacked people want to support those who supported them. I see no problem with buisness letting others know their stance on the situation. If there is such widespread rejoyce of the elimination of collective bargining in the state of WI (Like so many would have you believe), then the signs would actually have an adverse effect on buisness. People would actually avoid those buisnesses because of their stance, unless there is more support behind the public unions than the right wants to admit.
 

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Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
"Ummm, ok, whatever"???? Really? You need to do a little research my friend.

So, you don't think that firefighters and police officers deserve the right to collectively bargin for conditions and wages? Uh, oh, that's right, the people who rush to put out the fire in your house or come to take you to the hospital when you have been in an accident, or risk their lives every day to keep you safe, are in the same "Public sector" as those "greedy teachers" hmmm...

Unions are needed. They balance the power between workers and companies. Without the power to collectively bargin, wage scales would drop like a rock and we would be right where a certain group of people want us to be, an upper class (which increased by 8% last year by the way, I wonder who this resession is really hurting), a lower class, and no middle class. Jobsite saftey would be at an all time low because there would be no accountability.

And why would Indy not be behind the orginization that helped put food on his table as he grew up?

We can agree to disagree I guess.

By the way, my wife and earn "middle class" wages, no unions needed, just hard work on our parts.
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
Indy, don't let these people try to bully you into changing your opinion. Stand your ground!

cat_man_mike-

Please show me where ANYONE has bullied Indy into changing his mind. I have not seen it and have certainly not tried to do it myself. I have only tried to help the boy learn that there are respectful ways to give your opinion and ways that are not respectful. It's his choice, but quite frankly, if he chooses to show little respect in his posts to others, then he should expect to get any kind of response that comes his way.

No one is forcing him to post here and anytime an opinion is put out here, it is obviously a target for criticism. If he can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. No one is given preferential treatment, not high posters, not those with a specific age group, etc...

-John
 

cat_man_mike

New member
Very good point, I can only base my opinion on my 25 years of being in the work force, and talking to other people in other professions that I have met in those 25 years, and what I have learned about unions, in high school, and on my own. A group of people wanted to start a union at the place I am employed at some 15 years ago. After listening to what the union rep said, a vote was taken, and we voted no union.

There are plenty of us that do not belong to unions, and fall in the "middle class", with out a union telling us who we can vote for, or where we can spend our money, etc etc.

My wife and I both make pretty good money, for our area, and we did this by busting our butts and earning every promotion we have gotten. We did not need to go into the owners office as a "group", and demand more money, or else. We went in to the office as a single employee, with a list of we offered to the company, sometimes we were rewarded, other times not. The times we weren't, we discussed what we could do better, made the adjustments, and were rewarded later.

Union members do not "go into the owners office as a group and demand more money or else" At the end of a contract both sides meet to discuss many issues, including but not limited to, salary. A middle ground is met and BOTH SIDES sign the contract. When times are good, raises are good, when they are not, consessions are made for the good of all. We are not out to stick it to the contractors. If we did, they would all be out of buisness and we would all be out of a job. If you believed more facts, and less propiganda, you would understand that.
 

ss440

Member
"Ummm, ok, whatever"???? Really? You need to do a little research my friend.

So, you don't think that firefighters and police officers deserve the right to collectively bargin for conditions and wages? Uh, oh, that's right, the people who rush to put out the fire in your house or come to take you to the hospital when you have been in an accident, or risk their lives every day to keep you safe, are in the same "Public sector" as those "greedy teachers" hmmm...

Unions are needed. They balance the power between workers and companies. Without the power to collectively bargin, wage scales would drop like a rock and we would be right where a certain group of people want us to be, an upper class (which increased by 8% last year by the way, I wonder who this resession is really hurting), a lower class, and no middle class. Jobsite saftey would be at an all time low because there would be no accountability.

And why would Indy not be behind the orginization that helped put food on his table as he grew up?

You most of voted for Pat Quinn, don't worry its coming to Illinois just like WI. Collective bargining will come to an end its unavoidable the the state is broke. All of you union guys have to remember that small business's run this country and we get the #$@% taxed out of us and soon it will no longer profitable for us to stay in Business in IL. When we fail the whole house comes down. We work so you don't have to!
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
You most of voted for Pat Quinn, don't worry its coming to Illinois just like WI. Collective bargining will come to an end its unavoidable the the state is broke. All of you union guys have to remember that small business's run this country and we get the #$@% taxed out of us and soon it will no longer profitable for us to stay in Business in IL. When we fail the whole house comes down. We work so you don't have to!

I am sure he did, after all, the union told him to.
 

windingtrailgal

Active member
Yet I am not in disagreement with the collective bargaining issues the state of WI (governor, legistative branch) has with it's public employees. There has to be some common sense used when it comes to the wages of employees. Like with many other unions, their retirees are costing more than their active workers. How is that condusive to the survival of any business or any state's budget? Public employees who belong to unions seem to receive more protection than any other labor unions. WAIT! you can't BE on the gov't payroll unless you're union. Why am I not allowed to decide if I'd like to join or not?

Why does the city of Chicago and any other goverment entity only award contracts to union shops? Are they assuming that I'm not a law abiding employer who ensures decent wages and decent working conditions?

One of the things I don't like about unions is the protectionism of employees who don't work or do substandard work.

One of the things I don't like about unions is an employee receiving a wage that is not in line with what the market will bear (bare?) Here in my lovely little village our cross walk guards are unionized. That's right...our crosswalk guards. If they'd put it to MY vote, I'm sure enough parents around here would have done it for free. I wish I could remember the salary - all I remember was covering my ears (like a little kid and la-la-la-ing) so I didn't have to listen to the ridiculousness of it all.

When I worked for a time for Jewel (grocery stores), the baking division had left their bakers union an joined the AFL-CIO. There were employees that had files SO THICK they had to be put in a separate drawer. How much time, money, energy and effort was wasted protecting an employee who should have simply been fired? And why does one leave their own union to join the AFL-CIO?

We all have examples (obviously)...it's a heated topic for a reason. You work hard at what you do, Mike - how do you feel when there's a dead weight employee next to you that makes more than you do? Or worse yet, creates danger to you in your work environment?Your employer would probably get rid of that guy(s). But in the public sector? Who gets rid of those guys?

It just goes on and on and I probably should have done what I said I was gonna do and just go watch some eagles on their nests!! :)

wtg
 

cat_man_mike

New member
cat_man_mike-

Please show me where ANYONE has bullied Indy into changing his mind. I have not seen it and have certainly not tried to do it myself. I have only tried to help the boy learn that there are respectful ways to give your opinion and ways that are not respectful. It's his choice, but quite frankly, if he chooses to show little respect in his posts to others, then he should expect to get any kind of response that comes his way.

No one is forcing him to post here and anytime an opinion is put out here, it is obviously a target for criticism. If he can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. No one is given preferential treatment, not high posters, not those with a specific age group, etc...

-John

John,

post#'s 33,47,51,and 54 to start (10 pages is a lot of posts to go through and get every one) . I thought it was a bit over the line saying he was being brainwashed by his parents and school and comparing unions to communism.

I agree that he could have been more respectful in his responses. To get respect you have to give respect and he could have been more tactful. I just chalk this up to being 16. Not an excuse for it, just an explination. How many of us where cocky little sh**s at that age? (some of us still are) Especially on a faceless forum where you don't have to look the other person in the eye. He obviously has a passion for this issue and I don't want him to be swayed by the tactics mentioned above on this or any other issue.
 

loco

New member
You most of voted for Pat Quinn, don't worry its coming to Illinois just like WI. Collective bargining will come to an end its unavoidable the the state is broke. All of you union guys have to remember that small business's run this country and we get the #$@% taxed out of us and soon it will no longer profitable for us to stay in Business in IL. When we fail the whole house comes down. We work so you don't have to!

What do you mean by the last sentance?
 

cat_man_mike

New member
You most of voted for Pat Quinn, don't worry its coming to Illinois just like WI. Collective bargining will come to an end its unavoidable the the state is broke. All of you union guys have to remember that small business's run this country and we get the #$@% taxed out of us and soon it will no longer profitable for us to stay in Business in IL. When we fail the whole house comes down. We work so you don't have to!

Nope, I did not vote for Quinn. I do not vote straight democrat. I do my research on the cantidates and make up my own mind. I cringed when Quin got voted in, as I did when blaggo got reelected. I am not going to go through my entire voting history but there have been many times where I have not voted for the union endorsed cantidate. I know there are a lot of union employees who do vote blindly for the union endorsed cantidate, my head is not in the sand on that issue. I can only control who I vote for. I agree that the tax hikes that Quinn and Maddigan are pushing through are not good for the state.

What the H*** do you mean by "We work so you don't have to"????????
 

russholio

Well-known member
Very good point, I can only base my opinion on my 25 years of being in the work force, and talking to other people in other professions that I have met in those 25 years, and what I have learned about unions, in high school, and on my own. A group of people wanted to start a union at the place I am employed at some 15 years ago. After listening to what the union rep said, a vote was taken, and we voted no union.

There are plenty of us that do not belong to unions, and fall in the "middle class", with out a union telling us who we can vote for, or where we can spend our money, etc etc.

My wife and I both make pretty good money, for our area, and we did this by busting our butts and earning every promotion we have gotten. We did not need to go into the owners office as a "group", and demand more money, or else. We went in to the office as a single employee, with a list of we offered to the company, sometimes we were rewarded, other times not. The times we weren't, we discussed what we could do better, made the adjustments, and were rewarded later.

And I can respect that.

Just as a side note.....not all of us who belong to a union are mindless robots. I'm still quite capable on my own of voting for the candidate of MY choosing (which may or may not -- usually not -- coincide with the union's recommendation) and spending my money where and how I choose to spend it.

Not trying to flame you or anybody else at all for being anti-union -- I don't like some of the stuff they do, either. But I get edgy any time words like "always, never, all, none" (or words and phrases of similar connotation) come into play because in real life, they rarely apply. For example: I had my bathroom remodeled a couple years ago. Turns out, some aspects of it were pretty shoddy workmanship at a premium price. Because I experienced one lousy contractor, should I hold a grudge against ALL of them and say they're ALL a bunch of crooks who can't be trusted to produce good work? No, I don't think so. It wouldn't be fair to those of you who do good work, just as it isn't fair to toss every union into the "rotten" barrel.
 

cat_man_mike

New member
Yet I am not in disagreement with the collective bargaining issues the state of WI (governor, legistative branch) has with it's public employees. There has to be some common sense used when it comes to the wages of employees. Like with many other unions, their retirees are costing more than their active workers. How is that condusive to the survival of any business or any state's budget? Public employees who belong to unions seem to receive more protection than any other labor unions. WAIT! you can't BE on the gov't payroll unless you're union. Why am I not allowed to decide if I'd like to join or not?

Why does the city of Chicago and any other goverment entity only award contracts to union shops? Are they assuming that I'm not a law abiding employer who ensures decent wages and decent working conditions?

One of the things I don't like about unions is the protectionism of employees who don't work or do substandard work.

One of the things I don't like about unions is an employee receiving a wage that is not in line with what the market will bear (bare?) Here in my lovely little village our cross walk guards are unionized. That's right...our crosswalk guards. If they'd put it to MY vote, I'm sure enough parents around here would have done it for free. I wish I could remember the salary - all I remember was covering my ears (like a little kid and la-la-la-ing) so I didn't have to listen to the ridiculousness of it all.

When I worked for a time for Jewel (grocery stores), the baking division had left their bakers union an joined the AFL-CIO. There were employees that had files SO THICK they had to be put in a separate drawer. How much time, money, energy and effort was wasted protecting an employee who should have simply been fired? And why does one leave their own union to join the AFL-CIO?

We all have examples (obviously)...it's a heated topic for a reason. You work hard at what you do, Mike - how do you feel when there's a dead weight employee next to you that makes more than you do? Or worse yet, creates danger to you in your work environment?Your employer would probably get rid of that guy(s). But in the public sector? Who gets rid of those guys?

It just goes on and on and I probably should have done what I said I was gonna do and just go watch some eagles on their nests!! :)

wtg

I can only speak for myself, but when I was a foreman, if someone was not pulling their weight or where acting dangerously, THEY WHERE GONE! Even if they where "connected", you work hard and safe, or you are gone. The union protects your wages and conditions, not your job.

As far as pentions go, if you work hard for 30-40 years and contribute to your pention that entire time, you d**n well better get your pention paid. Why is it the retiree's fault that the state can't take care of their money? Just blame it on the pention plan, that's the easy answer.
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
John,

post#'s 33,47,51,and 54 to start (10 pages is a lot of posts to go through and get every one) . I thought it was a bit over the line saying he was being brainwashed by his parents and school and comparing unions to communism.

I guess our opinions on the matter differ. Saying someone is brainwashed may not be the nicest thing to say, but it does not seem like he is being bullied to me. After, all you said something pretty similar: "If you believed more facts, and less propiganda, you would understand that." in post 244.

But we can certainly agree to disagree!

-John
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
And I can respect that.

Just as a side note.....not all of us who belong to a union are mindless robots. I'm still quite capable on my own of voting for the candidate of MY choosing (which may or may not -- usually not -- coincide with the union's recommendation) and spending my money where and how I choose to spend it.

Not trying to flame you or anybody else at all for being anti-union -- I don't like some of the stuff they do, either. But I get edgy any time words like "always, never, all, none" (or words and phrases of similar connotation) come into play because in real life, they rarely apply. For example: I had my bathroom remodeled a couple years ago. Turns out, some aspects of it were pretty shoddy workmanship at a premium price. Because I experienced one lousy contractor, should I hold a grudge against ALL of them and say they're ALL a bunch of crooks who can't be trusted to produce good work? No, I don't think so. It wouldn't be fair to those of you who do good work, just as it isn't fair to toss every union into the "rotten" barrel.

Point taken, from here on out, I will just address the unions here in Wi, whose actions, like what I posted above, and what the original thread starter posted, I do not agree with.

CatManMike, after reading what I originally posted, do you agree, or disagree with what they are proposing to do? Do you think it is wrong or right?
 
L

lenny

Guest
Calling someone out on negative behavior would be ok, but re-read your post. You go on and on about how you're worried he will fit into a community, he deserves his "shi*y" reputation, you have no respect for him and so on. I can't imagine being 16 and hearing that from an adult, that's all. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Let me illustrate: I have 4 children, one is an 18 yr old boy. Since he was born I have been committed to every phase of his life. Since I changed his very first tar like diaper to today reminding him to take out the garbage. Here is my point: When I raise my children I encounter tough times and easy times. There are times to lay the hammer down and let it all out. There are times to let things go and there are everything in between. My son has grown up to be very honest, a young man of high integrity. Why, because he has been treated with respect and has been called out on his negative behaviors. As a parent you cannot let a single circumstance go by without understanding and communicating or things will get away from you real fast and that is not a place where I want to be.

Indy is not my son but he is a young man worth investing in. He is motivated and very smart. He makes mistakes like all of us. Often he brings a load of crap to this board and I have been watching it for some time now. In my mind it has come to a head for me. If I don't call crap crap, I enable crap to prosper. Indy is worth more than just allowing him to do what he often does even if it means harsh rebuke. IMO that's where the big changes come. I seen a huge problem and had enough of it. I do not lash out in anger nor do I leave the kid hanging wondering omg. A person who has difficulties communicating on a message board likely has a problem communicating in general and that was my point about his community position. I have seen real changes in Indy's posts since he first came aboard. Does he have a ways to go,,,,, yes,,, just as I and many others here. I by no means believe I have cornered the market on respect. I naturally struggle with it and am aware of it, takes a lot of restraint. I have not neglected to let Indy know he is a motivated, hard working young man. Maybe I am naive to invest in young peoples lives but I do understand that if I do it includes the good and the bad.

Mark, you and I may never see eye to eye on this and that is fine but my hope is that Indy has seen the seriousness that I and others have brought to the open, examined himself and made intentional changes. It sure is a lot to expect on a message board but I have faith it can happen. My response to Indy is something that myself and my friends allow with each other. It's called accountability and it works. It is crazy effective with young people. I had a friend once that cheated on his wife. When I found out I told him he either he had to either meet with me and our pastor or I was going straight to his wife. He chose to meet with us. We all spent time dealing with those temptations and building each other up. Less than 2 years later he confessed to his wife and she forgave him. She said she had a clue he was unfaithful and was thinking about leaving him but she hung in there. Moral: he strengthened himself under great diversity and she began to trust him. When the time came he confessed and she forgave. I cannot believe I just wrote all this but the point is, do not let crap slide. Combat it with strength in whatever mean possible and good will come. Yea,,,, maybe Indy just has a big mouth but never forget, and this just may be the most valuable thing I have ever posted, that out of the mouth is the persons heart.
 

russholio

Well-known member
Thanks, Skylar. And for the record, I certainly do not agree with "thug" tactics, whether committed by union or non-union people.

Can't type anymore, I just drooled on the keyboard looking at that pasty in your hotdogger. :D
 

cat_man_mike

New member
Point taken, from here on out, I will just address the unions here in Wi, whose actions, like what I posted above, and what the original thread starter posted, I do not agree with.

CatManMike, after reading what I originally posted, do you agree, or disagree with what they are proposing to do? Do you think it is wrong or right?

While the word "only" is too strong of a word in reguards as to where they spend their money, I see nothing wrong with a buisness showing they support the public unions in WI. Like I stated before, if there is that much supposed wide spread support for the bill, those the signs will have a negative effect on buisness and the anti union lobby will have nothing to worry about.

I do think the wording could have been different as to not be as confrontatioonal and more just supportive.
 

ezra

Well-known member
I find it funny that we are "union thugs" for boycotting people who threaten our unions. What about the "snowmobile thugs" who boycott companies like REI who contribute millions to try to get us banned from federal land??????? What is the differance there, oh yeah, one is a recreational activity, and the other puts food on the table!

Sheet Metal Workers Local 265!!!!!!!!!

Indy, don't let these people try to bully you into changing your opinion. Stand your ground! Apparently they are not fans of overtime pay, 40 hour work week, holiday pay, holidays off, weekends off, OSHA, Minimum wage, or any other worker's benefits given to them by the sacrifices of union members.

and unions have done these things in your life? unless you are over 100yrs old no.what have the unions done in the past 50ys except make huge and small companies all over the usa file chapter 11 to get out from under the crushing piermed scam known as full ride pension and med plans that are unsustainable in any world except gov and now time for the Gov to pay the piper and get a grip on reality .and if it true the union brought me OSHA that is one more bone I have to pick with unions now I dislike them more than I did when I worked for one.BTW I come from a long line of union workers both state and private who could have done so much more with there life
 
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