Union thugs are at it again

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lenny

Guest
If I was on your guys' anti-union side, you guys wouldn't give a crap how bad I'd bash unions. Just sayin... But since I'm one of the few on this site on the "other side" AND because I'm a kid who hasn't worked and bla bla bla, I'm all of a sudden a terrible kid... I have an opinion and I'm sticking to it. Sure, maybe a few posts were a tad outta line, but overall, the way I see it, if I was on the anti-union side I'd be the "greatest kid ever" and my "parents raised me right"... Should I probably be shutting up right now? yeah, probably, but I'm not giving up.

Indy, I am not implying your a terrible kid, in fact, I would argue the opposite. I used to read all posts on threads and learned much about you. I will say I am impressed on your level of enthusiasm. You jump right in and get things done. Seems like you take pride in what you do. Your shed thread was cool, many kids your age don't have initiative and confidence to do the things you do. Rebuilding sled motors at 15 is not all that common. What I am referring to is how you come across on the board and it's often disheartening. Doesn't make you a bad kid. I don't blame your parents. From all the good content you do post I give your parents a lot of credit. I understand your at an age where your a young man. I have a 18 yr old son so I do understand how a young mans brain functions. The intent of my post was not to offend you or lash out at you but rather bring something to your attention that maybe you didn't realize. I don't give a rats tail about your position on rep and dem, union or non union. IMO this site rocks an it is growing. It's probably stupid of me to have an expectation of high civility but I feel very strong where it comes to communication. I am not a mod or Johns buddy who's out policing threads. My hope is that we do not have animosity, that's senseless. All I ask is that you examine yourself and see if what I said may have some merritt. You think I didn't press issues when I was a kid, I friggin did and I am glad people cared enough to bring it to light. Sometimes a kick in da pants is a good thing, normally that is the parents job but you bring it here so you gotta deal with it. I have posted BS on this board and taken slack for it, it's life bud. Stand strong and run with it. You admit you have crossed the line, that's integrity. Don't just admit it, go the next step. REPENT AND YOU SHALL BE SAVED,,, oh wait, that's my church speech, sorry.
 

indy_500

Well-known member
Indy, I am not implying your a terrible kid, in fact, I would argue the opposite. I used to read all posts on threads and learned much about you. I will say I am impressed on your level of enthusiasm. You jump right in and get things done. Seems like you take pride in what you do. Your shed thread was cool, many kids your age don't have initiative and confidence to do the things you do. Rebuilding sled motors at 15 is not all that common. What I am referring to is how you come across on the board and it's often disheartening. Doesn't make you a bad kid. I don't blame your parents. From all the good content you do post I give your parents a lot of credit. I understand your at an age where your a young man. I have a 18 yr old son so I do understand how a young mans brain functions. The intent of my post was not to offend you or lash out at you but rather bring something to your attention that maybe you didn't realize. I don't give a rats tail about your position on rep and dem, union or non union. IMO this site rocks an it is growing. It's probably stupid of me to have an expectation of high civility but I feel very strong where it comes to communication. I am not a mod or Johns buddy who's out policing threads. My hope is that we do not have animosity, that's senseless. All I ask is that you examine yourself and see if what I said may have some merritt. You think I didn't press issues when I was a kid, I friggin did and I am glad people cared enough to bring it to light. Sometimes a kick in da pants is a good thing, normally that is the parents job but you bring it here so you gotta deal with it. I have posted BS on this board and taken slack for it, it's life bud. Stand strong and run with it. You admit you have crossed the line, that's integrity. Don't just admit it, go the next step. REPENT AND YOU SHALL BE SAVED,,, oh wait, that's my church speech, sorry.

Nothing against you Lenny. I apoligize for anything I said that was out of line but would also like to see a few others do the same. Is it December 2011 yet? Next winter, 250+" for the UP next season. Mark my words.
 
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russholio

Well-known member
Sparky, nice first post. Makes a lot of sense. Welcome to the club!

Moose, that's the same message I've been trying to convey. Thanks for not lumping all unions into the "bad" barrel!
 

windingtrailgal

Active member
If ya go back to the original post and read all the rest of the posts that followed, a lot of good comments and posts have been made.

I'm not sure how Indy got singled out more than anyone else for stating his points of view. Tone is sometimes hard - especially with hot button topics. I never see a need to attack anyone - especially someone I've never even met who is posting their opinion here at JD... And sometimes comments are simply being made and are perceived as attacking. This is a tough issue with very strong opinions all the way around.

I've said before and will say again that Indy is an exceptional young man and most 16 year olds I know aren't worth the powder to blow them up. Indy, good job holding your own. Just because you're "wrong" :D doesn't mean I don't admire your conviction to get in there and scrap with folks who have more life experience and facts on their side!??! :p

Now, back to some of them unions sucking...........:confused:
 
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dcsnomo

Moderator
A fair wage is determined between the employeer and employee.

I want someone to tell me what the salary range of the middle class is, nationally. The best I can tell, the middle-class is not based on a salary but whether you belong to a union or not. Middle-class = union member. Not a union member = rich. Am I right or wrong?

Totally wrong. Only 12% of the population is union. 64% of population is working class or lower middle class. If you assume all union members are working or lower middle class (not true due to some teachers, airline pilots, others) then 52% of those classes would be non union middle class.

Salary of middle class-
Working class 16-30k
Lower middle $35-75K
Upper middle $75k+, but not in the top 1% of earners
 
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xsledder

Active member
Totally wrong. Only 12% of the population is union. 64% of population is working class or lower middle class. If you assume all union members are working or lower middle class (not true due to some teachers, airline pilots, others) then 52% of those classes would be non union middle class.

Salary of middle class-
Working class 16-30k
Lower middle $35-75K
Upper middle $75k+, but not in the top 1% of earners

What's the base salary for the top 1% of earners? And where did you get your figures? IRS? Newsweek? Internet blogger?

Finally, you have lower middle-class and upper middle-class but nothing for middle-class. Why are we trying to protect the middle-class if there isn't one there already. Who is it then that's disappearing, lower or upper middle-class.

(I'm going somewhere with these questions, just preparing my point.)
 
and Indy as soon as you put in at least 3 yrs min working and start actually paying the government a % of what you have earned some may start to respect your input on a subject that you currently have 0 personal experience with.after you join your union and start busting your hump with no more recognition or pay than the lump you are covering for is receiving let us know how you feel on the subject

Indy, This is what they say now. But be warned, after those three years you better tow the line of accepted opinion around here. One step off of complete agreement and you'll be slapped with the "lib" label of dismissal.

I've run against it myself. I've been working for 20 years, cities and small towns across the UP, WI, MN, public sector, private sector, non-union workplaces and workplaces with both union and non-union. Don't expect any extra cred around here based on working and life experience. Just don't let it bother you. I used to just read the slant and take it for what it was. I while back I started tossing in my opinion even against the grain. It's worth it. At least the chorus now has more some variety. In time it may even become appearent that not everyone you come across on the trails etc. is an opinion clone based only on common interests. It is possible that someone with a very similar background to your own sees things in a different way. It doesn't make them foreign, illegal, sick etc.

Keep chiming in Indy, even before 3 years with the rest of us working stiffs. I see value in what you post. You are on the front lines and dealing with teachers each day. I doubt they are brainwashing you or your parents for that matter. To those who think otherwise I have to ask "how long ago has it been since you were 16?" I remember those days and taking special delight in disagreeing with my parents and teachers. No doubt your opinion will evolve in time but so what? That should be the hope of others here too. It is just an exchange of ideas, don't let being on the "wrong side" stop you.
 
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revman

New member
“Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence.”

-Robert Frost-

I had to remind myself of this before I posted.

Isn't one of the forum rules to not get political? Just curious.

Have a good day and enjoy the snow before it turns to mud.

REVman
 
D

Deleted member 10829

Guest
Great kid

I don't agree with Indy on this topic, but I have never had anything but respect for the kid. I for one wish our youth today were much more like Indy than the way they are. He could be playing video games all day and expecting everything done for him like most kids today, but look at what he does instead. The way some of the adults on here reply to some of his posts is out of line too, but I don't see anyone calling them out. I feel bad for Indy, he doesn't deserve this IMO.
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
What's the base salary for the top 1% of earners? And where did you get your figures? IRS? Newsweek? Internet blogger?

Finally, you have lower middle-class and upper middle-class but nothing for middle-class. Why are we trying to protect the middle-class if there isn't one there already. Who is it then that's disappearing, lower or upper middle-class.

(I'm going somewhere with these questions, just preparing my point.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class
 

scottd

New member
I read some threads and frankly have no idea why I am posting in this?

It's the first post of this thread that makes people so non-union. I would say I become more non-union by the day but I certainly see the purpose they served and could serve. Trouble is they got SO greedy. Look at the UAW and how it helped crush the American car industry for a long time. Were they needed? Sure probably at first but when guys are only getting jobs because their parents worked there, did not even have to go to college, excellent pay, even better benefits all the while barely having to work with no concern of being accountable and still mad at 'management' (many of which probably did more and were paid less) it gets out of control. When I was in college my senior design project was the Formula SAE racecar (it was the first year my school had done it). Anyways we toured a GM engine plant while in Detroit for the competition. Talked with a couple of Engineers and one not too far out of college had walked us past his "office". A crummy LITTLE cubicle. He pointed to a few others and said this guy has 25 years this guy 35 years whatever...... All the same crummy little cube. Then we went went into an area where they hand built 'test' engines. Talked to the union engine assembly guy, and i'll go out on a limb and guess he made at least as much and probably more than the engineer did. He had this nice big area with a big desk and HUGE bookshelf. He had an engine there (closer to shortblock form) in his area and someone asked him how long it takes to build an engine. He said that he had been working on that one for 2 weeks and how he had done this and that and was waiting on the engineers to make a decision on some detail to continue. Someone asked what he did while he waited and he smiled and pointed at his bookshelf (this thing rivalled a small library). That is ridiculous, he could have and should have done other things, I am sure he was capable. Why didn't he? Because the union got too powerful. How is the auto industry doing?

I could go on and on with several more stories of similar type in my first dozen years in the workplace......but i'll add just one more for the "RICH" end unions types, airpline pilots. Large carrier pilots still have it darn good but not as good as they used to which is why they complain about it. These guys made $200+k and I personally know some that would have a schedule that went something along the lines of fly from Chicago to Singapore (or some very far away place), spend a night or so and then fly back. Repeat 21 to 28 days later. Then they still had vacation and stuff on top and made big money. That sounds more like retirement to me. Guess how they got to that? How has the airline industry been doing?

Again I think unions had there place and in some cases probably really still do, but many big ones got WAY to big and WAY to powerful so now they are going to help ruin it for the smaller ones that probably still need to be around. Public sector unions also seem like a conflict of interest to me.

As far as politics (because this is all about politics after all) I often think in general it would be better to have the house and senate an even split of dems and repubs so they just fight and cannot get anything done because typically anything that gets done isn't good and if it really was then both sides would like it. I just hope and pray enough tea partiers get in and mean it and cut government size, cut cost, pass tort reform, term limits, require a balanced budget, cap the max tax rate that anyone has to pay ever at 33% and not just add fees and taxes at other places to make up for it, clean up the other entitlements so that myself, my kids, etc can actually have a chance to be able to retire someday and not be living in a third world has been country and working until the day we die. I fear that even now the proposed spending 'cuts' are fake BS. We need to ACTUALLY CUT and not increase taxes. Somehow if all that got done I have a feeling the economy will be just fine and probably thrive. Of course lots of lawyers will be looking at less business too, which is why this stuff will not happen as most politicians are lawyers and that is how they made their money.
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
“Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence.”

-Robert Frost-

I had to remind myself of this before I posted.

Isn't one of the forum rules to not get political? Just curious.

Have a good day and enjoy the snow before it turns to mud.

REVman

This thread isn't political, it is philosophical. If (when) some lugnut blames it on Obama/Bush/liberals/conservatives/ then it becomes political, the turd is in the pool, and the party ends.
 

ss440

Member
Why not!!!

I love how big business guys making 75-100k a year with brand new trucks and sleds complain about union workers making 40-50k a year... Please explain to me how this makes sense???

Everybody got out of the great depression (with a great republican president) by clinging to unions. The recent economy downfall in the past decade is not because of unions. Who was the president when the economy started going downhill again? Yes, another republican... See where this is going?

Indy, stay in school and get a college degree. Republicans, we work hard so you don't have to.
 

indy_500

Well-known member
Indy, stay in school and get a college degree. Republicans, we work hard so you don't have to.

College is a money-pit and I really dislike school. For the things I want to do, I'm going to be going to either fox valley tech (5 min. away) or michigan tech.
 

Skylar

Super Moderator
Staff member
College is a money-pit and I really dislike school. For the things I want to do, I'm going to be going to either fox valley tech (5 min. away) or michigan tech.

Sounds good Indy, I think Mi Tech is around 25000 a year for out of state residents. :eek:
 

dcsnomo

Moderator
College is a money-pit and I really dislike school. For the things I want to do, I'm going to be going to either fox valley tech (5 min. away) or michigan tech.

Indy-
Not everyone is destined for college, but your assertion that college is a money pit tends to overlook the fact that people with college degrees earn more than those without. A college education has a very good ROI when factored over the 45 years a person works.

Median annual earnings of full-time, full-year wage and salary workers ages 25–34, by sex and educational attainment: Selected years, 1980–2008
[In constant 2008 dollars]

Year All education levels High school diploma or GED Bachelor's degree or higher
Male
1980 $46,700 $44,200 $52,300
1985 44,000 40,000 54,800
1990 41,200 36,300 52,300
1995 38,900 33,900 52,700
2000 42,500 36,300 57,500
2005 38,600 33,100 55,100
2008 40,000 32,000 55,000
Female
1980 $31,400 $28,700 $38,800
1985 32,000 28,000 41,800
1990 32,600 26,400 42,800
1995 31,100 24,900 42,400
2000 33,800 26,300 44,400
2005 33,100 26,500 44,100
2008 34,000 25,000 45,000
SOURCE: U.S. Department of Education, National Center for Education Statistics. (2010). The Condition of Education 2010 (NCES 2010–028), Table A-17-1.

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=77
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_384.asp
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
Indy-

So glad to hear you are planning on some more education after high school. No matter how much you dislike it, stick it out and finish what you started out to do. It does not need to be a 4 year degree. A 2 year associate or completing a program at a trade school will catapult you past others that went from high school to the working world.

I hated school more than anyone I know and still get the shakes just walking through the Tech Campus to give a talk or something, but the time spent in the classroom after high school is the most important as far as getting ahead in life. I stuck it out and with hard work and my educational background, I was able to live my dream by moving here, working out of my home and doing EXACTLY what I wanted to do for a living. It is all worth it, believe me!

-John
 

Admin

Administrator
Staff member
yikes, I did not know that... :(

There are things you can do to minimize the cost. One way is to live in the state and become a resident. Not sure about MI, but most states, you just need to live for one year and pay taxes in that state. Then you are a MI resident and pay in-state fees, which are more like 6k a year.

Sounds like a perfect excuse to move up, get a job, play in the sun in the summer and snow in the winter, become a resident and then hop back into school. Just don't forget that last part of the plan!

-John
 
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