Union thugs are at it again

[revman]

This thread isn't political, it is philosophical. If (when) some lugnut blames it on Obama/Bush/liberals/conservatives/ then it becomes political, the turd is in the pool, and the party ends.

This isn't political? Weird...pretty sure you'll find politics in it if you read it from 1st post to last. Pretty sure the words liberal, conservative (pretty sure they aren't talking about meal portion size), and maybe even an Obama are in here.

Whatever...the sun is shining and the birds are singing (except for that darn murder of crows that are sitting in my tree)...can't call that singing, can you?

REVman

 

[ibendwire]

Indy-

So glad to hear you are planning on some more education after high school. No matter how much you dislike it, stick it out and finish what you started out to do. It does not need to be a 4 year degree. A 2 year associate or completing a program at a trade school will catapult you past others that went from high school to the working world.

I hated school more than anyone I know and still get the shakes just walking through the Tech Campus to give a talk or something, but the time spent in the classroom after high school is the most important as far as getting ahead in life. I stuck it out and with hard work and my educational background, I was able to live my dream by moving here, working out of my home and doing EXACTLY what I wanted to do for a living. It is all worth it, believe me!

-John

Indy

John could not have said it better. I too hated school and I ended up going for 10 years after high school. Why, because the profession I chose required it. Plus I was married and had a daughter. Times were tough but I don't regret it for a minute. I still have nightmares about going to class, having to take a test and not knowing any of the questions. But if it is something you enjoy doing it is worth it. Like others have said it does not have to be a 4 year college either. Do it while your young and it will pay off in the end. Remember: An education is something that can't be taken away from you.

 

[Admin]

REVman-

You are right, there are a few posts in this thread of 160 posts that have political content to them (to both sides of the fence), but for the most part, folks have been playing nice and dancing around the political side of the argument. I have been ready to pull the plug on it as soon as things got out of hand, but so far they have not.

I hate pulling threads, but do so when things get out of hand or rules are flagrantly broken. I agree with dcsnomo that the majority of the posts here have been philosophical rather than political and did not want to toss the baby out with the bathwater because a handful of posts went over the line. Sorry if that offends you.

-John

 

[peppermill]

College is a money-pit and I really dislike school. For the things I want to do, I'm going to be going to either fox valley tech (5 min. away) or michigan tech.

Indy whatever it is you want to do go for it. Our son hated school and he even skipped school and we would find him out working on the farm that he worked on after school and on weekends. When it came time to graduate he did graduate he told us he wanted to go to WY to the Diesel Tech school out there. We couldn't believe that he wanted to go to school and especillay so far from home. We lived in WI at the time. WY Tech was a very strict school at that time. I don't know what it is today. That was about 10 yrs ago. After graduation he worked at a farm implement place for about a year and still wanted to go school so we as parents supported it. It was only a 6 month course with a price tag of $10,000 which included room and school. He got student loan and it was a low monthly payment of about $100 per month so he was able to pay more at times and had it paid off way before it was due. The cost of school has gone up I'm sure. After graduating from there he now has the opportunity to go back and get a refresher course if he wants. He graduated from there and is very successfull today in that field. He is so busy he works 12-14 hr days. Very successfull and very very happy and good at what he does. Keep your dreams alive and whatever it is you want to do there will be a way. Maybe the field you want to go into won't be a 4 yr college.

 

[anonomoose]

Heck....who "loved" school??....it was pressure time....except there are a few "shall we say odd ducks" who really loved it....and they liked it so much, they never left....they are referred to as professors.

 

[dcsnomo]

Heck....who "loved" school??....it was pressure time....except there are a few "shall we say odd ducks" who really loved it....and they liked it so much, they never left....they are referred to as professors.

I was actually quite fond of school, so much so that my "old man" actually had to cut me off to force me to graduate. I couldn't believe he was that unreasonable, it had only been 5 1/2 years, 2 completed majors and starting on a third, social chairman of my fraternity, driving his new 74 Charger that my mom made him give to me, dropping out occasionally to be a ski bum. I mean, how unreasonable can a father be!!!

 

[Skidooski]

I don't agree with Indy on this topic, but I have never had anything but respect for the kid. I for one wish our youth today were much more like Indy than the way they are. He could be playing video games all day and expecting everything done for him like most kids today, but look at what he does instead. The way some of the adults on here reply to some of his posts is out of line too, but I don't see anyone calling them out. I feel bad for Indy, he doesn't deserve this IMO.

I've been reading but won't get in this debate; except that I agree with Mr. Spease on this part.

 

[anonomoose]

Yeah DC...unless I miss my guess, you went thru several pairs of under-ware your first term/semester....jist like everyone else. You just got kinda fond of the no restrictions, and easy life around the campus to a degree that most kids did....noth'n new there....at least until:

A) your parents ran out of money or
B) you got a look at those student loans total....

then like most kids there was a full on panic to find a job...any job....and it has to happen right out of the gate.

Those "other" guys/gals who LOVED school never left it...they just stayed right on...perhaps moving down the street and hanging a shingle but for the most part...still there in spirit.

Come to think of it, after 7 years it was a combination of both A, and B above that got my daughter out....she still loves to go back...but does now remark about how dang young those kids are now that are walk'n around with book bags.

 

[windingtrailgal]

If ya go back to the original post and read all the rest of the posts that followed, a lot of good comments and posts have been made.

I'm not sure how Indy got singled out more than anyone else for stating his points of view. Tone is sometimes hard - especially with hot button topics. I never see a need to attack anyone - especially someone I've never even met who is posting their opinion here at JD... And sometimes comments are simply being made and are perceived as attacking. This is a tough issue with very strong opinions all the way around.

I've said before and will say again that Indy is an exceptional young man and most 16 year olds I know aren't worth the powder to blow them up. Indy, good job holding your own. Just because you're "wrong" doesn't mean I don't admire your conviction to get in there and scrap with folks who have more life experience and facts on their side!??!

Now, back to some of them unions sucking...........

I kinda thought I was sticking up for Indy!?!

And agree about college or trade school or, in my house, the military is an option. We don't have a college fund for our kids so I remind them frequently that they need to keep their grades up and do those "extras" that are now required to separate yourself from the pack. Indy has really good mechanical skills - always nice to have something like that in your back pocket just in case. I know we wouldn't be able to afford all the "toys" we have if big daddy didn't know how to fix/repair and maintain all of them.
And look at John Dee? Built his own house! He didn't go to school for that and it isn't his "trade" but he still knows how to do it as well as all of the other craftsman things he does. Getting a degree in the meteorlogical (sp?) field is tough...and he even changed schools because he knew that's what he wanted to do...gotta stick with what you have a passion for and it's a lot easier to get through all those classes! Now a lot of us consider him to be living the dream...

 

[catalac]

dcsnomo, social chairman! I would have been good at that if I only did what my parents wanted me to do and go to college. Went into the Navy instead, where I was VERY social!

 

[revman]

REVman-

You are right, there are a few posts in this thread of 160 posts that have political content to them (to both sides of the fence), but for the most part, folks have been playing nice and dancing around the political side of the argument. I have been ready to pull the plug on it as soon as things got out of hand, but so far they have not.

I hate pulling threads, but do so when things get out of hand or rules are flagrantly broken. I agree with dcsnomo that the majority of the posts here have been philosophical rather than political and did not want to toss the baby out with the bathwater because a handful of posts went over the line. Sorry if that offends you.

-John

Nope...never said it offended me, just trying to state a fact and remind people to watch it or else it will get pulled.

 

[tealracing16]

Here's the data for INDY

http://dpi.state.wi.us/lbstat/xls/tasr10.xls -- I think the singling out is because he is only 16. I wish I had the same drive the did at that age, but I was also told that I didn't know what I was talking about. At 16 you don't have bills, you have things you want to buy that you have to save for, electricity bill comes every month but a new (insert anything here) might only come once a year. I have only been out of high school for 9 years and sometimes I wish I didn't know what I do now.

Also - Michigan Tech(nological University) is a 4-year program. Not like FVTC. To be considered an instate student you have to live there for 1 year while not in college. I tried after I moved out of the dorms and they said no. I would say 25K is about right for right now.

Don't rule out school. In 30 years a college degree may be regarded the same as a high school diploma today. If nothing else your senior year in school take classes at FVTC to see what each program has to offer you. I was good at math and like working on cars. I can tell you there is no similarities between a mechanic and a mechanical engineer. When I was in high school I wish I could've job shadowed or gone to a college to see what an engineer does.

 

[firez10]

This is going to be long!

Normally I would not get into this type of debate or thread and I try to stick to the real content of what this site encompasses but I just cannot sit back any longer. Warning this will be a long read!!!!! There are several great posts and I respect everyone’s opinion. I have worked on both sides of the debate and must say just like others have said that there are deadbeats on both sides. I have also seen firsthand how corrupt both sides can be. I chose to work in the public sector as that is what most of my education has prepared me for. In my line of work as a safety professional, you must continue education on your own time and on your own dime. I did not get into this profession to “get rich” but I also did not get into this profession to be taken advantage of. Unions have their place and I respect what they have done for worker safety, in saying that I also believe they have over stepped their bounds and have created the perception that most nonunion people speak. As a safety professional I could make almost twice my yearly salary in the private world but I also take the risk of being unemployed after getting a safety program in place that works well, usually 3-5 years. It happens all the time in hospitals and manufacturing plants right now.
<O</O
There is much more to this than Union vs. Non-Union. This falls back to many different things and I hope I don’t go beyond “that line” that gets this post pulled. We live in the greatest country in the world, but we have become the greediest society in the world. All in all most people don’t want their taxes raised, and want the services they have come to expect to continue. Most people don’t want laws, regulations, standards etc… to affect them or their business or their bottom dollar. So the saying “as long as it doesn’t affect me, I’m ok with it” comes into play. Anymore people are more worried about what someone else gets and they themselves don’t get. I agree that there are jobs where the wages and benefits seem to be inflated or may not match what the private sector gets or vice versa, but as long as we continue to fight amongst ourselves the real big players will be laughing all the way to the bank. I have been to states where they hire just above minimum wage or have low pay and benefits and let me tell you I wouldn't live there and use the services. Try sitting at the DMV or Sec. of State for half a day to be treated like an idiot. I know some of you feel that way about the states you live in but try some of the southern states and you would learn a new respect, trust me.

Although we do need to evolve with the times we also must not let the past die. We still need manufacturing jobs that pay well. We still need to grow into a service type society as well. Really what we need to do is get back to what our true country was founded on. I would be willing to pay a couple of cents on the dollar today to help stimulate our great states economy by helping to erase our deficit, but I want that money back when things turn around. I would like to see our government services shrink in turn helping businesses thrive. We as a country, state, city, township and citizen need to evaluate what we really want. Only you and I can make this happen. As long as we continue to support the companies that leave the US, and live in our own little world, we will continue down the road we are taking. This really isn’t about unions or nonunion, this is about fairness, equality and having the ability to make choices. I’m 40 years old and many think well if you can’t take what being projected for cuts coming to you then find another job. Well let me tell you it’s not that easy. I have a car payment, a mortgage, two kids in college and other bills that I am responsible for and am living with the wages and benefits that I have had for the last ten years and they are slowly being taken away. I am nonunion by the way. If I would have known 20 years ago what I know now I would have taken a different path in life but that doesn’t mean things would be any different.

Eventually this will affect everyone, one way or another. The more things are taken away and the more we pay out will surely not help stimulate the economy. I know for one I haven’t made a trip up north snowmobiling in two years because I cannot afford to. Many people I work with are in the same boat as I. I have cut back in so many things that I used to do for fun that I can’t justify keeping 10 year old sleds, my truck, and my boat. For the first time in 22 years I will not be golfing in a league this year. I haven’t had a pay increase in 9 years and have taken a 27% pay decrease that most Michigan citizens don’t know about because the media only reports what they believe is good news. I am not asking for sympathy only stating facts from my own observations.

I also work as a paid on call Firefighter (nonunion) and have for over twenty years. I see how our budget has shrunk along with our membership and fear within 10 years we may not have a Fire Dept. in our community because of the time for training and time it takes away from family. We do have 6-8 full time firefighters who live around here and work for another city but they cannot volunteer because the union does not allow their membership to work as a volunteer firefighter. Many of them would in a heartbeat but are afraid of the repercussions of doing so. I make less than $800.00 per year and I put in approximately 500 hrs. in so you do the math. That also requires continuing education as well. I am mandated by the state to maintain my medical license which I pay out of my pocket as well and should because I surely wouldn’t want someone working on me if they weren’t up to date on education in the medical field. I do this as service to my community but we are under fire from tax payers because “we get paid”,” need new equipment”, and are always “driving the trucks around wasting gas”. There is no way a union could work with this type of employment or our little city/townships would be broke. This argument could be used for all businesses and services if you really wanted to get that picky. Unions still have their place and it depends on the business and line of work. How would you like to be told your taking a 50% pay cut and will be paying 40% of your benefits premiums without any recourse. Well don’t say it won’t happen because it already is, private and public!!!! Maybe not to those extremes but for me it’s a 12% decrease this year on top of the 27% I’ve already lost and an increase in insurance premiums as well as a decrease in coverage. Although I am nonunion these cuts are happening to the union employees as well and are really not fair when you consider none of our elected officials are or have taken any cuts at all.
<O</O
So do unions have their place, absolutely, but are they the answer to all jobs, no way!!!!
I think this is one of the greatest sites that I belong to and hope I didn’t offend anyone with my opinion. I’m ready for a real change, anyone else?

 

[frnash]

I don't agree with Indy on this topic, but I have never had anything but respect for the kid. I for one wish our youth today were much more like Indy than the way they are. He could be playing video games all day and expecting everything done for him like most kids today, but look at what he does instead. The way some of the adults on here reply to some of his posts is out of line too, but I don't see anyone calling them out. I feel bad for Indy, he doesn't deserve this IMO.

I've been reading but won't get in this debate; except that I agree with Mr. Spease on this part.

I have to strongly agree with both mspease and Skidooski here! This reminds me of a quotation often inaccurately attributed to Winston Churchill:

"If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain."

(Along with a number of similar quotes citing different ages, also erroneously attributed to Winston Churchill.)

 

[doo_dr]

college paper wasn't that long!!

I can't believe you guys have kept this thread alive this long.

 

[windingtrailgal]

firez10 - thanks for sharing all of that. Truly. The more information the more understanding by all of us. Thanks for your time and dedication to your fire dept.

 

[windingtrailgal]

revman - my momma always taught me if you don't have any thing nice to say, don't say anything at all. This is a tough enough topic and I think MOST people have done a really good job conveying their thoughts in a respectful manner. Not sure what you are trying to contribute with the last few posts in here you've made? Just sayin...

 

[indy_500]

If nothing else your senior year in school take classes at FVTC to see what each program has to offer you

My sister took 3 classes this year at FVTC (which school paid for) this year (her senior year. But, guess what, that programs getting cut...

 

[doo_dr]

Cut Programs???

Why? I think I know but I would like to hear other ideas/opinions.

 

[indy_500]

Why? I think I know but I would like to hear other ideas/opinions.

Why don't you tell me why it's being cut? lol We were supposed to read 2 more books in english class for the remainder of this semester, but those got cut too. Now we have to learn about a bunch of dead authors.